SOMETIMES, an idea that’s brilliant in theory is completely rubbish in practice. These ideas can include, but are not limited to, Marxist economics, Prohibition of alcohol in the ’30s, New Coke, the Ford Edsel, filling the Hindenburg with hydrogen, building the city of New Orleans below sea level, the chump who sued McDonalds over its hot coffee, high fructose corn syrup, and countless others truly terrible ideas over the years.
Add to that list anti-lock brakes on cars, commonly known as ABS. First commonly used in the early 1970’s on cars, the idea is brilliant in theory. The automaker installs a little speed sensor on each of the four wheels – and when one or more wheels suddenly stops moving (indicating that the driver has pressed the brake too hard, causing the wheel to ‘lock up’), the car’s computer will over-ride the driver’s braking and release the brake momentarily, enough for the wheel to re-establish traction. Once the wheel is turning normally again, the computer will reapply the brake, rinsing and repeating until the car stops moving. This results in an odd “chirp-chirp-chip” sound coming from the wheels and a serious shudder that is often transmitted through the steering wheel – that’s the ABS working properly.
The reasons for installing these systems appear obvious – it’s vastly more difficult to control a vehicle when the wheels are locked up.
But is it safer? The answer is both yes and no. In the case of most drivers (assuming that we are talking about lowest common denominator here), the answer is probably yes. Today’s road driving test (as of 2005 when I took mine, at any rate) consisted of about fifteen minutes in a parking lot along with some time on back residential streets with a police officer riding shotgun. They didn’t teach me how to correct understeer, how to properly rock the car out of snow, or what to do when the car begins to skid.
To be fair to the DMV – it is probably on page 129 of the driving manual that you can pick up as a “study aid” before taking the written test. But does everyone actually take this to heart – and go apply it in a safe, empty parking lot so he or she knows how to react in an actual emergency?
The answer to that is, sadly, a decided ‘no’ and thus, in those cases, ABS is better than nothing. When faced with a low traction situation, an inexperienced driver is liable to push on the brakes harder and his bladder empties as he sails into the embankment. ABS corrects this by pumping the brakes for you and allowing someone to maintain a modicum of steering ability while still braking.
Except that stomping on the brakes and leaving your foot there flies in the face of every instruction ever given to you during a driving course or from any experienced driver.
The driver who knows what he’s doing benefits little from ABS. Time spent in an empty parking lot will quickly educate you on what “threshold braking” is – how fully you can press the brakes without locking up the wheels. Knowing your car’s mechanical limits is just as effective as ABS braking – and far safer, since invariably ABS like all mechanical systems fail at some point.
And in cases of limited traction such as snow, ice, and mud – ABS is actually detrimental to your safety, as it significantly (and needlessly) increases stopping distance. In snow or mud, a locked up wheel will dig into the snow – and provide considerable stopping power. If ABS prevents the wheel from locking in this case, almost no braking will occur. Consider the following situation, which happened to yours truly just today.
The driver is going down a snowy road at 25 MPH (position 1 on my crude Paint drawing). He wants to turn right into Wal-Mart, so he begins getting on the brakes and after a few seconds begins to turn right into the side street. Problem is, his car has ABS (red line, position 2). ABS prevents the wheels from locking up, so they continue to spin freely – and there’s no braking happening.
In about two seconds, yours truly is still doing 25 MPH, and his right-turn isn’t producing the intended result, because the wheels have insufficient traction to turn the car at 25 MPH in the snow. And traction control – the mirror machinery of ABS that prevents wheels from spinning when you floor the gas pedal – prevented me from gunning it, getting traction, and forcing the vehicle to the right. So he sails directly into the embankment. (Position 3, red line). But-for the ABS preventing proper braking, he would have slowed considerably before the critical moment – and could have made the turn (position 3, blue line).
I spent the next ten minutes with a shovel, trying to clear enough snow to give myself a path out.
You could fairly say that I shouldn’t have taken the turn at that speed – and you would probably be correct. But that doesn’t change that I had the ability to correct any error, any spin, and any wheel locking – and that the ability was negated by a “safety” feature.
And that, friends, is unacceptably dangerous. I wouldn’t mind if the car had an “ABS override” or “traction control override” – but increasingly, cars do not have a button on the dashboard to this effect. In fact, Federal law mandated that all cars model year 2012 and later must include ABS and other “safety” features, ostensibly to reduce crashes.
Which leads me to the final premise of this article – how does the minority of drivers who are actually educated on how to drive in emergency situations defeat these “safety” features that just invariably get us into trouble?
In seven years of driving, I’ve owned three cars – the first lacked ABS, it was broken from day one in the second car, and only the third has functioning ABS. Which I will be disabling as soon as possible. I’ve had many, many close calls with other cars in that seven years – and I successfully avoided them all without the help of ABS. This system will get me into more trouble than it’s worth.
The most effective method (and the crudest) is simply to pull the corresponding fuse. Most cars have their fuse box under the glove box on the front passenger’s side, although this can vary. All fuse boxes will come with an accompanying diagram that illustrates which fuse serves which device on the vehicle. Consider this sample fuse box, taken from a Volkswagen Beetle.
To disable ABS in the Beetle, just pull fuse #9 and you’re good to go. The ABS light will likely light up on your dashboard. Ignore it. If it bothers you, then I’ll gladly sell you some electrical tape to cover it up. Now take that car to an empty parking lot and educate yourself on what it can (and cannot) do.
Happy Motoring.
Auston Hensley 
“Mechanic”:
I love your example of seat belts and air bags. Passive restraint seat belt resulted in numerous decapitations. The industry was lobbying to make them mandatory despite the deaths. Consumer outcry and lawsuits thankfully resulted in the eradication of passive restraint seat belts. Your advice to the families of decapitated vehicle occupants would be — “check your owners manuals”?
Air bags! Another excellent example. They too resulted in numerous decapitations, mostly of children. In one cases this happened at less than 4 mph in a grocery store parking lot. If I recall correctly, airbags were already mandatory at the time of these deaths. The industry was forced to re-engineer airbags to sense the weight of occupants. Again, it was consumer outrage and law suits that brought this change. The advice to accept a technology just because its in the owners manual is not supported by history.
While I cannot find the video online, it was either W5 or The Fifth Estate that reported the deaths of two state troopers when their car slid off the road into a ravine. They were unable to slow down in advance of a sharp curve. The vehicle that they were in pursuit of did not have ABS and had no difficulty navigating the same curve just moments in advance. The cause of the accident was deemed to be the ABS braking system. The original air date was between 1998 and 200x.
Many Police departments subsequently disconnected ABS on all cruisers. Today, police interceptors sold by GM, Ford and others are sold with what is called “Police Calibrated ABS”. I believe one difference is that these systems do not operate below 8 MPH but there may be other differences including allowing for substantial wheel lock. ABS on cars sold in Australia is calibrated differently to allow wheels to lock on loose gravel surfaces. With out this calibration. numerous Auzzies complained that they had no brakes most of the time. ABS brakes are disconnected on every Rally race car. The disconnection is voluntary but every driver does it becasue it is the only way to survive a rally race. ABS brakes have been banned on formula one cars since 1990.
Outside of police departments, Australians, and race car drivers, car drivers have been compelled to drive vehicles that are considered unsafe by the aforementioned.
You’re silly. It’s banned in F1 because it would take away the driving element. An ABS system derived at the race track would yield considerably quicker lap times.
Daniel:
Silly? You do know the difference between rally racing and F1 Racing? Right?
I stated that the disconnection of ABS brakes in rally car races is voluntary but everyone does it. The reasons for voluntary disconnections are obvious. ABS braking distances on gravel and snow are spectacularly long. That’s not just anecdotally but also according to multiple NTSHA formal reports. Any rally racer who drove with ABS brakes connected would be promptly wrapped around a tree.
Your reference to F1 racing and the1990 F1 ban of ABS is irrelevant for three reasons.
1) Everyone in this forum who has a beef with ABS is complaining about the poor performance on snow, ice or gravel. How many F1 races are run on snow, ice or gravel? None.
2) When F1 races did allow ABS, these were race tuned ABS, not the same ABS as street cars.
3) Also, those F1 drivers (Scott Goodyear for example) had a switch to instantly disconnect their ABS for any portion of the track that was unsuitable for ABS brakes. The switch was used very frequently as you can see from in cab video of Scott Goodyear. Skim through this forum and you’ll find a link to the video. Scott Goodyear reached for the switch with his right hand and an orange light on the dash lights up every time he disables the ABS.
Without such a switch, I can only imagine how many serious collisions would occur on an F1 course with something like mandatory full time ABS.
I think most in this forum who have learned to dread ABS on slippery surfaces would be pleased to have a switch to turn it off. In fact many have posted that they wish they had such a switch. Many other posters have proceeded to permanently disable their ABS and are very pleased by the results.
F1 authorities considered ABS an essential SAFETY feature, it is unlikely that they would have banned it for the last two decades.
The ABS industry has lobbied government to make ABS mandatory on all production vehicles for “safety reasons”. The argument is false since no study has ever found lower accident rates on ABS vehicles. In fact, most have found the opposite. ABS brakes are not a safety feature. It is a performance feature for very specific road surfaces and speeds.
On all surfaces braking distances are significantly longer with ABS.
This is why every owner’s manual warns drivers to increase following distance when driving a car that is equipped with ABS brakes. Longer braking distances are not safer braking distances.
At F1 speeds on dry pavement scrubbing off speed just before a high speed corner and brakng during high speed cornering are two circumstances where, ABS would be a performance advantage. Neither of those two situations involve coming to a full stop.
Also, drivers on legal highways don’t drive at those speeds.
It is irrational to compel driver to spend thousands of dollars extra on ABS only to have longer braking distances and more accidents.
In a rational world, the mandatory requirements for ABS brakes would be removed and ABS brake companies could market their expensive wares as a performance gadget for drivers who speed around corners on dry pavement but rarely need to come to a full stop and never drive on gravel, ice or snow. That would be a fair and honest marketing pitch.
Typogrphical error above…
If F1 authorities considered ABS an essential SAFETY feature, it is unlikely that they would have banned it for the last two decades.
I have had problems with every cars braking system with ABS. They are a sever safety hazard to all drivers except ‘Blue haired old ladies who most likely shouldn’t be driving anyway.”
I commpletely agree with you. I almos crash twice due to ABS engaging durina a hard but almost normal brake.
It was so scaring!… I was breaking strong but ok and suddenly breaks were released and stoping distance end up been twice tha original calculation. The car just did not brake.
At the beginning I believed that was an ABS mulfunction, but no, this is how it works. Unbeliable.
Yup, I had plenty of space to stop being a little over 3 car lengths away and when the highway came to a sudden and complete stop I had enough time until the abs kicked in. Suddenly i couldnt apply any pressure to the brake and just skidding right into the car in front of me……
ridiculous…
now what? Im at fault even though a gentlemen 20 cars ahead cut someone off causing this domino affect, and my abs forces me into an accident…
Dumbest feature ever. Ill be disconnecting mine.
I have abs on my motorcycle and when it activates on the rear break on a gravel road including my driveway its like I have no breaks at all its dangerous
To the author. Do some research on the elderly woman that sued McDonald’s for hot coffee. She was severly burned and suffered third-degree Burns and disfigured in the genitalia area. She was only asking for $20,000 to cover her medical expenses and loss of income. Here’s a story you can read https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts
To Julie, I’m guessing the elderly lady spilled her coffee because her ABS kicked in and she couldn’t stop her car. 🙂 Seriously – ABS is not good. Go ahead and hit a pothole on a clear summer day with totally clear roads and jump on your brakes because something or someone is right in front of your car, let your ABS kick in and, depending on your speed, it will take anywhere from 5 – 25 feet longer to stop than if you didn’t have ABS. I know, because it has happened to me. If ABS is so good, how come it’s not on race cars that are driven by professional drivers? People who drive around race tracks at 200mph know that their lives are on the line at every second, if ABS was good, they’d all use it – but they don’t. Hmmmm.
Even though I agree with you in the pothole example (been through the same situation but corrected it by braking harder), ABS is not allowed on formula cars because it makes it easier for the drivers. Just like traction control and automatic transmission.
Actually it was not allowed on F1 cars as it was making it “easier” yes, but also it was making it automated and boring removing competition between drivers and moving it into technology. Plus drivers lost some control of the vehicle by a pre determined automatic system. Additionally, the systems in F1 were not exactly the same as you get in road cars, and nobody really dug deep into the issue of ABS in unrecoverable spins and loss of directional control. (AFAIK) ABS was not on the cars for too long.
How many F1 circuits have pot holes, ice, sand, gravel, or snow? None. Therefore, any 1994 determination by the F1 circuit on ABS is irrelevant to modern-day concerns about ABS safety when ABS brakes cause drivers to overshoot icy intersections, find themselves unable to slow down prior to an icy curve, loose all brakes over pot holes, and to experience only a fraction of potential braking power on wet surfaces.
The relevance of ABS on F1 circuits to the relevance of ABS in city traffic reminds me of the original mid 90’s studies on ABS safety.
The studies that included adverse road conditions (like gravel and snow) found that accidents on ABS equipped vehicles was higher. The only studies that arrived at a more neutral conclusion were rigged. The method of rigging the data was by excluding adverse conditions and also by excluding the most popular three models of vehicles. I’m referring to the US government NTSA studies. The official rational for the model exclusion was that these three highest selling volume models somehow attracted bad drivers. That of course makes no sense because some of those models were ABS equipped and some were not.
If indeed bad drives gravitated towards certain models then their accident rates should have been split equally between ABS and Non-ABS. The obvious conclusion is that the “scientists” were cherry picking the data to find some combination of cars that would allow them to arrive at the conclusion that ABS equipped vehicle accident rates were just a little higher, but not significantly higher. So they eliminated the three models that did have significantly higher accident rates for ABS but they never published just how significant. Potentially, the most popular vehicles may have had 20 or 30 percent higher accident rates and those numbers were withheld.
Remember that a first set of NTSHA studies did find significantly higher ABS accident rates and that this finding caused the NTSHA to reverse its decision to make ABS mandatory on US vehicles. A second round of studies that cherry picked the data was not able to find ABS brakes were safer. Instead, the cherry picking technique was used to arrive at the conclusion that ABS accident rates were higher, just not significantly higher. And even though the obvious conclusion of this study was that mandatory ABS brakes would not decrease accident rates, ABS still became mandatory.
ABS became mandatory as a result of industry lobbying. Typically that involves campaign contributions (AKA) bribes. The fact that the scientists tried so hard to cherry pic the data to arrive at a less negative conclusion suggests that their findings were primarily a representation of the conclusion that they were told to arrive at.
Beautifully stated. Bottom line is always the almighty dollar. Somebody in power was making money by enforcing ABS be put on cars.
I don’t think it’s just business, it’s that for bad drivers ABS is on average better than no ABS. And most people on the roads are terrible drivers in terms of car control skill.
Every driver is a bad driver when they are headed towards an icy intersection or a stopped vehicle with no brakes. The idea that bad drivers are better off with little or no ability to brake is just silly.
Bad drivers have poor attention, they drive too fast, and they underestimate stopping distance. What do you think happens when depending on the road surface the ABS braking distance increases 20% to 100% compared to conventional brakes. These bad drivers have more accidents when their braking power is curtailed.
Most accidents are intersection collisions and rear-end collisions. Whether a driver is good or bad, ABS makes these collisions more likely, and more sever.
The only drivers who might avoid an accident via ABS interventions are those who would stand on the brake pedal on a slippery surface with no effort to modulate the brake force.
Is it not outrageous that this is exactly what ABS brakes teach drivers to do. The ABS industry has succeeded in denying the majority of drivers the opportunity to learn the critical collision avoidance skills of emergency braking and threshold braking (two different skills). They have turned every driver into an under skilled driver. They have made every new car less capable of stopping in time to avoid a collision.
The new generation of drivers has no idea what they are missing. If you drove in the 70’s and 80’s, then you may know how bad ABS brakes are. The industry is erasing the knowledge and skill to differentiate. The next generation of drivers lacks the knowledge to recognize that vast numbers of collisions, injuries and deaths would not be happening if ABS had never been invented or if ABS was removed.
Also, the 1994 NTSHA study that cherry picked the data in order to conclude ABS accident rates increased only moderately, needed to exclude accident statistics for the three most popular models. If they did not do that, the finding would have been a significantly higher accident rate on ABS equipped North American vehicles.
The justification for the cherry picking was that these three models attracted bad drivers which caused unreasonably high accident rates on the ABS equipped vehicles. Note that some of the excluded vehicles were ABS equipped and some were not. So think about it. If indeed those models attracted bad drivers, it would prove that bad drivers have more accidents in ABS equipped vehicles compared to other bad drivers driving the exact same cars that were manufactured without ABS.
So, what you were saying about bad drivers being better off with ABS…it’s really just speculation. No one has attempted to measure or prove the accuracy of the statement. And the last broadly based North American comparison of ABS vs. non-ABS accident rates indirectly demonstrated the fallacy of any assumed advantage that ABS brakes might bring to bad drivers.
When ABS brakes first appeared on New York taxis, accident rates on ABS equipped taxis skyrocketed. The authors of the study rationalized that the drivers of ABS equipped taxis must have been so over confident in their amazing ABS brakes that the over confidence was solely responsible for the increase in accidents. Of course that’s absurd. But that’s what they said.
What the taxi study really proved is that extremely experienced and skilled drivers, are also much worse off with ABS brakes.
I know this is an old post but saying professional drivers don’t need an item a typical on roax drive does is rather backwards in what you are trying to say. The professional should need less controls. ABS is not meant to help you stop is the big point most people here are missing. It is designed to help you maintain control. Once in a skid you lose steering for the most part. ABS is designed to allow maneuvering in panic brake situations.
I worked for an automotive supplier specifically for ABS modules my last couple years of college and can truly say you don’t understand how it is meant to work if you think you are meant to just hold the pedal down and lock your grip on the steering wheel. The story above in the snow happened because of a bad driver judging stopping distance.
my abs is leaking break oil. whats the solution.
Thank you for your article and you are so right. I drive a Jeep Compass and it was the first time driving it in snow. I live in Connecticut; just going slow I tried to stop and the ABS kicked in and not only did it sound hard on my brakes but I couldn’t stop. I kept sliding and almost hit the vehicle in front of me. This was heading into a Stop & Shop parking lot. Pulled the fuse today. No more, im 47 and know how to drive.
Amen to no more mandatory ABS brakes! If they want to place them on vehicles on the road for people who can’t drive worth a crap; that’s fine. But I worked 37 years in the automotive repair trade, have been driving since 1967, and almost all of my problems with slick or icy roads has been with ABS braking systems.
If the government want’s to put them on cars for people who freeze up in critical situations to avoid collisions, then put and ‘OFF’ switch in the car for those of us that know how to drive.
Knock on wood, but I have 50 plus years with “NO” accidents from my driving.
that’s called a fuse, just pull it out. done. no more ABS.
I have a 2013 Kia Soul and abs kicks on all the time rain or snow. I feel like I have no control and makes it worse..thinking I should disable it?.
Since it would be illegal for me to tell you what to do, I won’t. But I have had constant problems with ABS systems on ‘MANY’ cars. If and where I can, I remove the fuse and throw it in the glove box. Then I just ignore the dash lite telling me that the abs isn’t working. To each his own.
Disclaimer: Disconnecting your ABS brakes will dramatically reduce your stopping distances significantly reduce your likelihood of driving in to the back of a stopped vehicle or coasting into an active intersection. If you elect to disconnect your ABS brakes you should be willing to accept the above risks. Also, in many cases, cruise control may no longer work and you may have an orange warning light appear on your dashboard.
Depending on your vehicle there are three different methods:
1) Remove the ABS fuse
2) Remove the ABS relay
In newer vehicles, the above two solutions may put the vehicle into “limp mode”. This means you won’t be able to accelerate faster than a snail or drive faster than a cow.
Method 3:
Disconnect one ABS wheel sensor. The connector can usually be found behind the wheel-well cover and is usually located within two feet of wire leading from the Brake calipers. Waterproof the connectors with silicone grease and heat shrink tubing to prevent corrosion to the contacts. This will ensure that the contacts can be reconnected when you sell your vehicle.
You will likely loose cruise control 😦
VCS will stop working 🙂
Cross traffic alerts and radar based automatic braking may also stop working 😦
However, you will be able to brake based on your own decisions
If none of the above solutions work for you then keep in mind that you can override the ABS brake on the read of your vehicle by using the parking brake. Its something that you would want to practice in an icy parking lot before you tried it on the road. However it is a skill that could save your life if ABS won’t let you stop and you are heading to an active intersection. If your car has AWD then the Parking brake trick will also have the effect of overriding some ABS on the front wheels via the transmission. The effect is greater on manual transmission vehicles but is also noticeable on Automatics.
just pull the fuse, it won’t work with the fuse pulled. absolutely you should pull it out.
then take a piece of black tape and cover up the ABS light on the dash. out of site out of mind.
Also, even when the pavement is dry and I’m slowing down to a stop the abs kicks on…I feel so unsafe.
Heather:
See my reply to your orignal post for methods of disconnecting ABS brakes. Also there was a typo. I meant you could manually override the ABS on the REAR of the vehicle using the parking brake. Also, check your tires. Over inlfated tires or old or worn or poor quality tires will make ABS brakes even more dangerous than they usually are.
Last evening I tested my car on ice and snow…it is the first time I own a car with ABS…I went on a country road where there was no traffic and tested the brakes…the ABS kept the wheels from locking so much that it was like NOT applying the brakes at all!!!…it was scary as hell!!! it was like driving a car that has NO brakes at all !!!…….insane !!!….
all my previous cars were without ABS and I have always been a good driver ( some of my friends would say an excellent driver as I used to do crazy stunts and never lost control/had an accident ) I have always been able to apply just enough pressure on the brake pedal to bring the wheels a hair trigger from locking up , and if one locks I was always able to release the pedal ever so gently to unlock a wheel…..
..I have to disable the ABS on Kia Forte 2010 or that car will kill me, the ABS on that car takes away over 80 % of the braking power… yes 80% I am not exaggerating, the car was coasting not braking.
.I can not believe this is considered a safety feature…….I understand it keeps the car from skidding or spinning and doing a 180 ( for drivers who are not good drivers), but it also assures that you will hit whatever is in front of you because about 80 % of the braking is gone….yes about 80 % of the braking is gone….I should make a video of this…it is INSANE and scary as hell….it is like driving a car that has NO brakes at all….I repeat; coasting would accomplish the same.
problem is my car has three – yes 3 – ABS fuses…
I wonder which one I have to remove and I wonder if it will cause problems…like disable other things I need like the speedometer?
I have a 2012 Hyundai Elantra and the system in your car is probably similar.
I found the 10A fuse marked “ABS” under the hood (#13 in the diagram in the box on my car). Pulling that fuse disables the ABS/TCS, exactly as I hoped. When braking or accelerating on a loose surface, it feels like a “normal” car, which is a relief. I can finally feel what’s going on at the road surface.
However, it has some other side-effects:
– The ABS, TCS and Brake lights on the dash come on. I expected the first two, but not the Brake light.
– The steering response feels lighter, as if it’s no longer speed-sensitive. Apparently this is due to the steering using the same sensors as the ABS.
– The throttle response is more abrupt, which is quite noticeable when getting on or backing off the throttle. This was definitely unexpected. Perhaps there’s an electronic throttle damper of some sort?
While I can live with the lights on the dash, the other effects are less acceptable. I may end up putting the fuse back in and either:
Unplugging the ABS module (and carefully capping both sides)
or…
Pulling the ABS1 (40A) fuse and/or the ABS2 (20A) fuse
If nothing else, it will be interesting to see the difference in the effects. I’ll report back with what I learn.
briannystorm,
Thank you so much for this information, I really appreciate it!
I have not tried removing any fuses yet, I wanted to know if removing a fuse would trigger the ” limp home mode “or cause other problems.
and I do not have a garage…the car sits outside in snow and temperatures of minus 25 celcius these days…I do not feel like kneeling in snow and freezing my fingers…I use my car only once or twice a week, I am retired because of health problems
My 2010 Kia Forte has a switch to turn off the anti-skid…the car runs smoother when it is off, the throttle is more responsive, it feels more natural more like a car is supposed to feel…yes on snow and ice there is more wheel spin but I can control that, I have done it since age 14
that switch also makes the car accelerate more slowly on dry asphalt…I keep it off 99% of the time as it is a nuisance but not as bad nor as dangerous as ABS is.
when spring is back and I can work on my car I will find a way of disabling the ABS that causes as little side effect as possible…maybe I will install a switch and only turn it off on ice and snow covered roads where ABS becomes a nuisance that could get me killed
on dry asphalt I have no problem with ABS
I have tested the ABS / the brakes on this 2010 Forte on dry asphalt and I can modulate the brake pedal to the point tires starts to howl/squeel a bit yet the ABS is not triggered
in summer time on dry asphalt my ABS is pretty much never solicited, I do not mind that it is there.
while in our harsh Canadian winters of thick snow and blue ice the ABS on my car becomes frenetically hyper active
even if I push the brake pedal as gently as if there was an uncooked egg between my foot and the brake pedal, the ABS is triggered and the car barely slows down at all
I have been driving on ice and snow since age 14 – my father was letting me drive without a licence – and I knew I was not crazy when I said ABS makes braking distances MUCH longer on ice and snow; it is what owner’s manuals say and it what research says ; on slippery surfaces ABS increases distances
I have done stunts on ice and snow thousands of times and I say ABS is an atrocious dangerous thing…it increases braking distances so much you may as well just let the car coast.
I have posted links in other comments that show this is what research and science says ; on slippery surfaces ABS increases braking distances
people stubbornly refuse to admit it is true despite all the evidence and despite the agencies that test such things saying ABS increases braking distances on slippery surfaces
those are the facts, not because I say so, because those are the facts
the sun is not hot because little me says it is hot, the sun is hot because it is a fact that it is hot
same thing with ABS, it is more than my opinion and more than my personal experience,
it is a fact, a verified scientific fact, measured by the best people we have and they tell us , they warn us; ABS increases braking distances on slippery surfaces.
the following is not my opinion or just an opinion, it is what the facts are ;
…”…on loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces, ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle steering control.[2][3][4] …”…
…”… Hard or panic braking on bumpy surfaces, because of the bumps causing the speed of the wheel(s) to become erratic may also trigger the ABS, sometimes causing the system to enter its ice mode, where the system severely limits maximum available braking power….”…
…”… In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring….”…
sources/references,
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KI4CY (2003-02-13). “Ram Glossary of abbreviations and terms”. Dodgeram.org. Archived from the original on 22 November 2010. Retrieved 2010-12-07.
Nice, Karim. How “Anti-Lock Brakes Work”. howstuffworks. Retrieved October 2, 2010.
“ABS Frequently Asked Questions”. ABS Education Alliance. 2004-05-03. Archived from the original on 23 May 2010. Retrieved 2009-10-22.
NHTSA Light Vehicle Antilock Brake System Research Program Task 4: A Test Track Study of Light Vehicle ABS Performance Over a Broad Range of Surfaces and Maneuvers, Jan 1999 PDF
Gerald J. S. Wilde (1994). “7. Remedy by engineering?”. Psyc.queensu.ca. Archived from the original on 2010-09-21. Retrieved 2010-12-07.
“Motorcycle ABS: Skepticism Debunked”. Ultimate Motorcycling. 2012-05-16. Retrieved 2012-08-18.
“Electronic Stability Control (ESC)”. nhtsa.gov.
It turns out that pulling the ABS1 fuse under the hood does exactly what I want. The ABS/TCS/ESC system is disabled, but everything else functions normally. I can live with the ABS and ESC warning lights; they’ll serve as a reminder to reinstall the fuse in the spring when I get the car inspected.
I’ve been Driving for 40 plus years have over 2 million miles under my belt. In Snow and Freezing rain Conditions or icy roads. I Will take any Engineer from any manufacture and show them in a real world scenario how ABS will cause any Vehicle big or small to end up in the ditch. Add a Trailer or Passengers into the mix and ABS is extremely Dangerous at stop signs or Emergency stops. Look at the amount of 150 car pile up on the new highways in a slight snow conditions these days. We never had that before the mid 90’s when most car’s didn’t have ABS. Ever new car I get. I add a switch to as where I can shut off the ABS in Snow and Ice. It’s saved my life many times!! As I tow a trailer 80% of the time. The extra weight of the trailer is not something Engineers think about when building new cars or trucks.
I first contributed to this forum years ago and subscribed to email updates. Recently I noticed that there are some great new contributions that only appear in the older comments section because they “are new replies to old posts”.
I wanted to briefly summarize what I thought to be two very valuable additions. A poster called “Canadian Friend” points out that owners manuals clearly state a warning that ABS equipped braking distances are longer compared to cars that are not equipped with ABS. These warning suggest that driving slower is the best way to avoid accidents . The text in is obviously inserted by me but I think it’s a fair interpretation given the giant black and yellow exclamation mark and warning symbols that typically accompany the warning text
“Canadian Friend” was making a counter point to several posters who were convinced that ABS braking systems are safer, and that drivers would be crazy to want to disconnect ABS.
As is often the case, people who strongly disagree are actually talking about two completely different things without realizing it. Indeed, ABS brakes can be an advantage in certain very specific situations. However, those advantageous situations all occur on perfectly smooth, dry pavement. Those in this forum who regard ABS as very unsafe are consistently describing life threatening ABS performance on Snow, Ice, Gravel, sand covered pavement, pot-holes and wet or wet/oily surfaces.
To punctuate this point, I noticed another contributor who goes by the name of Burritolikethesun putting forward a ferocious argument that was largely based on a YouTube video from inside the cab of Scott Goodyear while he was racing in what was reported to be the 1988 Rothmans Porsche Turbo Cup Series in Mont Tremblant.
Burritolikethesun was attempting to argue the safety advantage of ABS. Others countered that race car ABS was race tuned and that there is no snow, ice, potholes, gravel or stop signs or intersections on a race track. Everyone is driving in the same direction and everyone has equivalent braking power.
Still, I took a look at the YouTube video and accompanying comments and saw something very interesting. One YouTube comment suggested that Scott Goodyear was using a switch low on the dashboard to selectively turn on or off the in order to adjust for wet portion of the track. This commenter pointed to an orange ABS warning light that appeared each time Scott turned off the ABS. I reviewed the video and these observations appeared to be accurate.
So, what this really means is that a highly skilled professional race car driver like Scott Goodyear took advantage of a race tuned ABS system on the dry portions of the track to assist him with high speed turns driving while driving over 100 miles an hour. But on each and every wet portion of the track, this professional driver felt it was safer and more effective to disconnect the ABS braking system.
The obvious conclusion is that the most highly skilled drivers in the world seem to agree that ABS braking systems make poor decisions on low traction surfaces.
And while it may be true that ABS braking systems make hundreds or thousands of decisions per second, the decisions are wrong when traction is reduced. There is a saying… “100 bad decisions don’t make a good one”. Accordingly, stating that 1000 decision per second by an ABS system is always superior to what a human could achieve is false any time the road surface is less than ideal.
In many ways, ABS brakes are a solution to problems that don’t exist on normal roads. Drivers don’t drive on perfectly manicured tracks, without intersections, without pot holes, snow or ice. Drivers are not given a switch to disable the ABS for low traction surfaces. Drivers don’t need to navigate sharp turns on dry pavement at speeds near or exceeding 100 mph. ABS brakes may make cars safer for all the conditions that don’t exist in the real world. That’s not a useful contribution to road safety when every ABS equipped car has a longer stopping distance on every road surface. It’s outright dangerous and potentially lethal when ABS braking system effectively eliminate virtually all braking power on snow and ice in regions that experience these conditions for months every year.
PS. Sorry for positing this twice. I accidentally posted in the old comments section and there is no way to delete.
Not a race-tuned system. It’s the stock Bosch system with a switch that fools the ABS into thinking there is a damaged component so it will not engage. This was largely a stock homologation series–it surprises me they even allowed switchable ABS. I’ve owned four 944 Turbos, two with ABS. I would always prefer the car with ABS (except that the hub offset change makes for a smaller wheel selection) Also, if you think a race track with undulations (where the wheel repeated loses contact patch (like a pothole) in high-rate dynamic ways at high speed) is not a trying place for any braking system, you are incorrect. It is far from perfect. There is a lot more happening there than meets your eye.
I like how you try to dismiss my arguments with false logic after you’ve oversimplified them. So while you’re narrative looks great, that one example demonstrates that what glitters isn’t always gold (hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr haw haw cliches).
I might sound like a pompous ass. Since this is an internet forum, I don’t really care about he editorial quality of what I’m posting. I had a great time these last few weeks driving with ABS in the snow with an old Saab 9000 Aero. It’s hilarious–you can stomp the pedal, yank the ebrake, induce a spin and use the ABS as a traction control while you’re headed backwards clawing for grip. I probably don’t drive any day without an ABS intervention because driving a car hard is so fun. I seem to like, be able to stop in the snow and sub-zero temperatures with no problem. It’s called *anticipation*. Know you car, know the systems and how they work, and you won’t have to live your life in some indignant, worried, luddite haze.
You are absolutely right. I’m glad to share the road with knowledgeable drivers like you. I’ve got in trouble many times thanks to abs brakes . Thankfully each time due to luck I was not involved in an accident, but one of them had the potential for being fatal. The worse case is when there’s a few inches of crusty snow. Without abs one can brake and dig down into the snow cause it a dam of snow in front of the wheels on all the heels on all the axle and stop much quicker than with abs. Another is on steep icy or slick off-roading sometimes you can’t stop at all with abs. Thanks to all the inexperienced drivers in high places for putting our driving in danger. This unfortunately will become much worse with the so called self driving vehicles . It takes longer to verbalize a mile than to dr it. Good luck on duplicating 5 and a half million miles.
Yesterday, I almost totaled my car because ABS ‘helped’ me brake in a snow/slick situation. Directly after applying the brakes hard, the car entered the opposite lane with oncoming traffic – my little Kia Soul would have been destroyed by the oncoming F150 in the other lane on a head on impact. Who knows how I would have made out in this instance. I was just able to aim the Soul back to the right, which almost caused a complete spin, but I was then able to aim it back the other way just enough to aim it into a snow bank. I say ‘aim’ because that’s all you are able to do when ABS kicks in. You can’t modulate the brakes yourself to fit the circumstances. I’m an experienced New England driver, and I have never felt so helpless in a situation like this. I have never liked ABS, or automatic transmissions, because by having both you give up your instinctive ability to respond to bad situations. I proved that to myself yesterday.
Here is how I handle ABS brakes; Each time I need to get and inspection in order to buy new tags for my car and truck, I ” PLUG THE G-DAMN THINGS BACK UP TO TURN OFF THE ABS DASH LIGHTS, GET MY INSPECTION, DRIVE BACK HOME AND UNPLUG THE FUSE ONCE AGAIN, AND BRAKE DOWN MY CAR AS THE PHYSICAL LAWS OF NATURE HAVE TAUGHT ME TO DO IN 52 YEARS OF DRIVING!”
I will say, that if you can not apply the needed, and only needed pressure to control your car in a braking situation, then you should not be on the road with the coordinated people who can!
As we speak, I’m researching how to disable mine. This is one area where I agree the Government needs to reverse their ‘guidance’. It almost killed me yesterday.
Very interesting experiences and well worth reading this blog. I see very few reports that support ABS and no mention of ABS preventing an accident. Although I do not have any harrowing experiences to relate some of you might be interested in a controlled ABS experiment that I was involved in. My company had a fleet of Ford Taurus’s in the ‘90’s and ABS was new to the drivers. The fleet manager hired professional drivers to familiarize us in their effective use. A very large empty paved parking lot was used. Tires inflated to 36 psi. Being fleet all tires were like new. Tests were done with ABS enabled, then disabled. (Plug removed??) Stopping distances were compared at 50 and 80 kph. Very little differences were noted. We learned to brake to just below the threshold of ABS cutting in. However when the braking area was flooded using fire hoses the ABS system exhibited its advantage. This was the scenario. Wet pavement. 80 kph. Dummy tossed into our path. Panic reflex. Four wheel lock. Going to hit the dummy. Frantically steer left. Without ABS we all hit the dummy. The car would not steer. Locked wheels, though turned, merely skid forward. With ABS however, you can effectively steer because your wheels are still turning. Many of us were not successful, but the instructors could avoid the dummy every time and we did improve as the day progressed.
I know, I know…how often would this happen? Just thought you would be interested.
Hi Ted:
Enjoyed your story. My take away is that the team that came to demonstrate ABS stayed away from any tests that compared ABS to non-ABS braking distances on loose or slipery surfaces. Throwing a dummy in front of a fast moving car on a wet road seems is about as contrived an experiment as one could come up with. With no chance to stop with or without ABS the experment was designed to ignore braking distances and focus entirely on steering. According to you, the dummy was struck most of the time with or without ABS except in the case of the driving instructors. Presumably they had practiced over and over again to avoid the flying dummy. Burritolikethesun should feel much safer now just incase someone thows him infront of one of those instructors cars when it happens to be raining.
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182
ABS improves safety in most conditions.
I rest my case. 🙂
You rest your case on the report that contains these statistics:
FATAL CRASH INVOLVEMENTS: Wet Snowy or Icy Roads (Cars)
***************************************************************************
All run-off-road crashes: 34% increase in accident rate with ABS
Side impacts with fixed objects: 85% increase in accident rate with ABS
First-event rollovers: 52% increase in accident rate with ABS
All other run-off-road crashes: 17% increase in accident rate with ABS
Try reading a document before you rest your case on it.
Seems to be a lot of people here down on ABS. You all seem to claim to be good to excellent drivers. I’m unclear why you drivers, specifically, are so negative? If you are the good driver you claim, and you apparently have the ability to drive and stop your car in a manner that does not lock or skid our wheels, the ABS function on your vehicle will NOT activate. Period. It will only activate in the event of a wheel lock-up. in that case, you have nothing to complain or worry about, your ABS will never “kill” you. If however, even being the perfect driver, you find yourself in the situation that requires you to stand harder on the brakes….and you decide to modulate or regulate your braking, you are doing the same thing that ABS does for you, regulating and modulating. Of course, you being human, will not be able to do it as quickly, reliably and accurately as the computer will. I personally feel I am an excellent driver, I feel I can modulate my braking better than most. With that said, I drive a vehicle with ABS, Traction control, lane departure monitoring (and correction), blind spot monitoring, and probably some other stuff too. I’m glad its there to protect me and other people on the road when my skill is not enough….just my opinion.
Certified Master ASE tech 28 years, Automotive Instructor, Daily Driver
Don said ; …”… If you are the good driver you claim, and you apparently have the ability to drive and stop your car in a manner that does not lock or skid our wheels, the ABS function on your vehicle will NOT activate. Period…”…
one problem here in this whole thread is that half the people are talking about stopping on dry asphalt, the other half is talking about stopping on very slippery surfaces such as snow or ice covered roads
Don is talking about ideal conditons thus dry asphalt
that is not where we say ABS will kill us
ABS behaves VERY diferently on dry asphalt ; it almost never kicks in
while on ice or snow it kicks in WAY too easily, which makes it impossible to regulate or modulate or whatever you want to call it
the other thing is that those who say ABS will do a better job than a human can are – again – talking about perfect conditons of dry asphalt
on ice or snow it is a well documented fact that ABS makes stopping distances LONGER
how can people who say they are experts or engineers not know that this is even mentioned as a warning in the user manual that comes with new cars
ABS on slippery surfaces makes stopping distances LONGER, this is not our opinion, it is what it is
the only benefit of ABS on very slippery roads is that you can keep control of where the car is going, the car will not skid or spin and do a 180 or a 360
but ABS will make stopping distances LONGER on slippery roads this is a scientific fact that has been known for decades
I can not believe how under informed people are.
I take issue with one statement you made here:
“the only benefit of ABS on very slippery roads is that you can keep control of where the car is going, the car will not skid or spin and do a 180 or a 360”
If you turn the wheel on a very low traction surface, ABS will not stop your vehicle from spinning, for the same reason it won’t stop you from sliding off the road if you corner too fast for the conditions. In conditions where there is insufficient traction to steer without ABS, there’s not enough traction to steer with ABS, either.
You are right,
I should have been more clear, ABS helps reduce the chances of the car skidding and doing a 180 or 360 but it can not keep it from happening.
and you are right about cornering too fast…ABS can not keep the laws of physics from doing their thing.
any car – even a formula one car with tires sticky as glue – if it takes a curve too fast will simply keep going straight…
physics can not be changed, when too much force is applied to a certain mass, and only a limited amount of friction is available, something has got to give; the car skids off the curve.
Also as you know ABS can only help as long as the car is going in the same direction the wheels are rotating ; forward or reverse
if the car is skidding from left to right or right to left, ABS can not do a thing, which is why as was mentioned in car magazines back in the 1990s, when ABS became availaible car insurance companies reported and increase in accidents in which cars were skidding out of curves
the explanation is that most people do not understand ABS and understand physics even less
they think that because ABS keeps the wheels from locking when braking hard in a straight line, they think because the wheels did not lock, did not lose traction and did not skid or glide or whatever the correct word is
they think ABS will also keep the wheels from losing traction in a curve
but ABS only works on one axis, it only works on forces on the X axis and can not do anything for forces on the Y axis
here is wikipedia saying what I have known to be true for about 30 years
…”,…ABS generally offers improved vehicle control and decreases stopping distances on dry and slippery surfaces; however, on loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces, ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle steering control.[2][3][4]…”…
ABS SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES STOPPING DISTANCES on SNOW or GRAVEL
How can so few people know about this?
How can so many so called experts NOT know about this?
why do you think it is just our “dumb” and “bad” driver opinion when this a well document fact that can be found in your car owner’s manual or on the internet in two minutes?
ABS’ main function is improving vehicle steering control NOT reducing breaking distances
I can not believe that millions of people – including engineers – are that ignorant about something that has been know to be a fact for about 30 years.
ABS INCREASES stopping distances on slippery surfaces…it says so in your owner’s manual.
and this is why we say it will get us killed when on SLIPPERY SURFACE
and we are right
if a large truck runs a red light at high speed and the damn ABS makes me stop ten feet further than without ABS on a SLIPPERY snow covered road when I was about to cross that intersection, then ABS will get me killed.
ABS INCREASES BRAKING DISTANCES on snow and gravel and may get us killed.
end of story.
more from wikipedia confirming that us “dumb and bad drivers” are right about ABS being something that may get us killed,
…”…A 2004 Australian study by Monash University Accident Research Centre found that ABS:[2]
Increased the risk of run-off-road crashes by 35 percent.
In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring.
A June 1999 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 27.2 percent.[25] …”…
I rest my case.
And I am a freakin right about ABS being a dangerous thing that may get me killed on slippery roads
While working in the automotive repair industry, there was a sheer drop off at the edge of the shop. A six foot wall drop off that only had a parking bump to stop cars against. When finished with any repairs I did on a vehicle, we would drive the cars back around to the front office and quickly stop at that ‘BUMP’. Then anti-lock brakes came out, I had never drove a car up to that day; I swung around the corner of the shop with the car and hit the brakes. The damn car almost went over the wall, as it did not brake down as quickly as what I was used to with original braking systems.
Plus, when anti-lock brakes get age on them, they tend to burn up the brake pads. They don’t always fully release fluid pressure, causing the pads to rub on the rotors. Bad for pads, bad for rotors, good for car part sales!
Don’t worry, Don. I guess we just need to let the indignant/prepper/moron contingent kill themselves (and their families) when they yaw out of control into a tree sideways the next time they try to get their worn-out-bushings, out-of-alignment janglebus Ford Explorer to panic stop on wet pavement. If you have to have the accident, it sure would’ve been better to hit the object head on like the vehicle was optimally designed for–but nope–you slid it sideways into a tree with all four locked up *AMUUUUUURRRRIIIICAAAAAAA* and now your kid is dead. Wah-wah.
Burritolikethesun:
You wrote:
“https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182
ABS improves safety in most conditions.
I rest my case.”
Try reading the report:
1) The only way the NHTSA was able to arrive at a net positive accident rate for ABS vehicles was to exclude the three most popular vehicles.
“Three sporty models with high sales – Chevrolet Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, and Ford Mustang –are omitted from the study. Their drivers have high rates of run-off-road crashes. That mightconfound the analyses of the possible effect of ABS on those crashes. ”
Basically, they cherry picked the data to arrive at a positive conclusion because the conclusions would have been negative had they included all vehicle models.
2) They averaged dry road conditions and wet/icy conditions together to arrive at a positive conclusion of a 1% reduction in accident rate favoring the selected models of ABS equipped vehicles. If you isolate the wet/icy statistics these tell a very different story:
FATAL CRASH INVOLVEMENTS: Wet Snowy or Icy Roads (Cars)
All run-off-road crashes: 34 increase in accident rate with ABS
Side impacts with fixed objects: 85 increase in accident rate with ABS
First-event rollovers: 52 increase in accident rate with ABS
All other run-off-road crashes: 17 increase in accident rate with ABS
When they averaged all road conditions together, they ended up with a 1% reduction in car fatalities with ABS (but only by excluding the three most popular models).
Light trucks had a 1% increase in fatalities across all road conditions. On Wet/Icy road conditions, the fatality rates on ABS equipped light trucks were increases across all categories of accidents. The increased fatal accident rates for light truck with ABS were between 3% higher and 31% higher depending on category.
When you actually read the NHTSA report, it supports what the vast majority of posters in this forum are saying. ABS brakes dramatically increase the risk of a fatal collision when the road conditions offer limited traction.
LOL. I’m cherry picking data? So you want claim their omission of data from three (really two) models of shitty (report is not current era) rear-wheel-drive cars that almost certainly are purchased and driven by high-risk drivers with mullets? Did you see the incidence of yaw experiment? Do you know how study methodology is decided? Did you see how much more effective ABS is at stopping a vehicle on almost any surface that does not create the plowing effect?
I was out yanking the e-brake in the snow this morning to pitch this 2016 Yaris sideways that I’m renting for a conference. It’s nothing short of remarkable how much it takes to overcome the ESC and ABS intervention and get the car bent. Sure, if I want to go have some fun it would be great to disable that shit. If I want to build a car that gives people the best chance in any conditions I’ll continue to advocate installing those systems on every consumer vehicle.
I sure hope you’re not working at a lab wasting an NIH grant with your hilarious inability to discern what’s important and why certain data is really being controlled for (hint: it’s not aliens). The study I linked is far from perfect or comprehensive, but it clearly demonstrates from a technical, primary-test perspective that ABS stops a car shorter in most conditions and minimizes or totally eliminates yaw caused by hard braking in all conditions.
Opps, left out some perentage symbols:
FATAL CRASH INVOLVEMENTS: Wet Snowy or Icy Roads (Cars)
All run-off-road crashes: 34% increase in accident rate with ABS
Side impacts with fixed objects: 85% increase in accident rate with ABS
First-event rollovers: 52% increase in accident rate with ABS
All other run-off-road crashes: 17% increase in accident rate with ABS
Also, here is theory of mine (oh yes):
Ever notice how well newer (even the cheapest economy) cars handle compared to older ones? Especially turn in and sustained front-end grip? Well, part of what makes that possible to sell to the general public is the inclusion of the electronic aids (ESC/ABS, and you can’t have stability control without ABS). Turn off the ESC, hit an offramp, throw a bit of quick lock on the wheel and lift off the throttle. Look at how easy she comes around there, Bob! Older cars were mostly plow city unless you engaged in borderline theatrical action at the controls. The safety net allows the manufacturer to set up the suspension for less stability but improved “handling” without catching ruinous press and legal action.
I don’t have actual data to back that theory up, but seeing as lots of the experiences here are anecdotal, it would seem permissible.
Burritolikethesun :
I’m loosing track of the number of demonstrably false statements you have presented as fact. Here is a quick recap:
1) Burritolikethesun wrote “https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182
ABS improves safety in most conditions.
Not true. Blending all fatal accidents together across all road conditions (but excluding the three most popular models with the highest ABS accident rates) ABS had a 1% advantage for cars and a 1% disadvantage for light trucks. 1% is not generally considered statistically significant. This does not translate into “ABS is safer in most road conditions”. It actually translated into ABS fatality rates were lower for CARS under only one road condition “Dry Pavement” but are significantly higher for two other road conditions (Wet and icy). For LIGHT TRUCKS, ABS fatality rates were higher across dry, wet and icy pavement.
NHTIS found some ABS advantage by lumping fatal and non-fatal accidents together but that’s just bad statistics. Credible conclusions about safety need to be drawn from the fatal data and should exclude accidents that includes an unknown number of door dings and bumper scratches.
2) Burritolikethesun wrote
“The study I linked is far from perfect or comprehensive, but it clearly demonstrates from a technical, primary-test perspective that ABS stops a car shorter in most conditions”
Again, not true. In fact, the authors of the report wrote the following:
“ABS can significantly lengthen stopping distances on loose surfaces such as gravel or soft snow. Drivers should slow down and allow extra distance between vehicles under those conditions. Many drivers think the main purpose of ABS is to reduce stopping distances. This is a serious misconception. ABS will only reduce stopping distances significantly in some special road conditions, but may increase distances in others.”
The braking distance tests in the NHTSA study compared “4 Wheel lock-up” to “ABS braking”. It’s a pretty mindless comparison. A fair test of “proper emergency braking without ABS” to “ABS braking” would have found that ABS increases stopping distances on all road conditions.
The same conclusion is printed in every car owner’s manual “ABS stopping distances are longer compared to cars without ABS”.
The NHTSA study did find that Gravel stopping distances were 28% longer with ABS compared to 4 wheel lock-up. The authors of the report guessed that snow would generate similar results. It was a poor quality guess.
The authors of the study lacked some fundamental knowledge of braking principals. They concluded that a 4 wheel lock-up stops faster on gravel due to “a plowing effect” causing material to build up in front of the tires. This is false. The braking advantage is actually the result of the tires digging through the loose top surface to access the higher traction surface below. ABS brakes never access that surface because the wheels are constantly spinning. Snow and ice can increase ABS stopping distances by much more than 28%. There is a great deal of traction available just below the snow or ice on a road. ABS rolls on top the snow and ice. With ABS disabled, the driver has access to the high traction surface below.
The spectacularly long stopping distances on snow and ice are what most contributors to this forum are pointing to. They do so based on thier experiences. However, all the available information sources and studies support thier conclusions that ABS stopping distances are significantly increased on all surfces including snow and ice.
Of course, I’m wasting my time sharing this information with Burritolikethesun. The majority of his posts include in one form or another the statement that anyone who does not agree with him must be an idiot. He brags about reckless driving stunts and even post about being drunk and stoned. Burritolikethesun ignores all facts in favor of what he feel is true.
Even still, I think all contributions are valuable in one form or another. I have appreciated the opporuntity to revisit the 2009 NHTSA study to discuss its faulty methods and contradictory conclusions.
He’s a troll; what do you expect?
“I don’t have actual data to back that theory up, but seeing as lots of the experiences here are anecdotal, it would seem permissible.”
That’s because it’s complete BS. Auto manufacturers set up their vehicles to understeer, period (perhaps with some exceptions for sports cars that shouldn’t be driven in slippery conditions anyway). They do it through suspension tuning and stupid tire pressure recommendations such as equal pressure front and rear on nose-heavy FWD and AWD vehicles. The average driver is safer in an understeering car, because their natural inclination is to back off the throttle if the rear end starts to slide, which is exactly the wrong thing to do in anything other than a RWD vehicle (that’s the only part of your example that’s correct).
If you understand how to drive your vehicle, it’s simply not an issue. I tweak my tire pressure to minimize understeer and produce more balanced handling, and more driving enjoyment (not to mention better tire wear). I know how to handle rear-end skids in a FWD vehicle because I’ve practiced them both on dry pavement and in slippery winter conditions. I don’t need ECS to do that for me any more than I need ABS to brake for me after 43 winters of driving in NH. As soon as I can figure out how to disable the ABS system in my current vehicle (the 1st I’ve had with ABS/TCS/ECS) without unacceptable side effects, it’s history.
If you are looking for ways to disable your ABS, click the older comments link. Numerous methods for disableing ABS on recent model years can be found there.
Search for the word “Lexus” and it will take you to several of my posts describing what to disconnect to avoid “limp mode”
Forget trying to explain why ABS is dangerous! Here is the new dangerous thing that some will insist is not dangerous!
Tesla and Volvo and other such cars with auto-pilot can not see parked cars!!! NO they can NOT see parked cars/trucks, not even a BIG FIRE-TRUCK….Don’t take my word for it, read this,
[Tesla’s] manual does warn that the system is ill-equipped to handle this exact sort of situation: “Traffic-Aware Cruise Control cannot detect all objects and may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead.”
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/
They are now designing cars that refuse to stop because of ABS and don’t stop when there is parked truck on the highway…ohhhh I feel so much safer now !!
Thanks Paul, I’ll do that.
It turns out that pulling the ABS1 fuse under the hood does exactly what I want. The ABS/TCS/ESC system is disabled, but everything else functions normally. I can live with the ABS and ESC warning lights; they’ll serve as a reminder to reinstall the fuse in the spring when I get the car inspected.
That first paragraph is the most idiotic, naive, and retarded thing I have ever read. Rethink your life you bumbling buffoon.
At the risk of being a bumbling buffoon I wish to submit the following from my experiences.
Not quite on topic but I wondered if others use this technique for braking to a stop on snowy roads. With automatic transmission or standard, with or without ABS, just before you apply appropriate braking put the transmission in neutral. You will stop noticeably sooner. Especially going downhill. Try it several times. Post your observations. Or am I just imagining?
Yes, elimnating the forward engine load on the transmission & drive train will allow you to stop faster.
In addition to that a very effective emergency maneuver is to engage the emergency brake. This will lock the rear wheels and some of the wheel lock may be transfered to the front wheels in the case of an AWD/4WD vehicle.
At extremely slow speeds if you are almost at a stop but still contining on a slow colission course towards the rear bumper of the car stopped ahead of you it is also possible to shift to reverse, then slam on the gas. Obviously this is less than ideal for the transmission but at a snails pace, the risk of transmission damage is relatively low and the stoping power is instant on any surface including glare ice. The lowest risk to the transmission is if you are able to first lock the wheels with the emergency brake, then shift to reverse and then apply gas as you release the emergency brake. Obviously a rear wheel drive or rear biased AWD drive vehicle is more suitable for this manuver. FOr a front wheel drive vehicle locking the parking brake will do little to protect the transmission from a shift to reverse. In a manual transmission vehicle you can grind the gears and burn the clutch a bit to accomplish the reverse maneuver.
These are not manuvers that you want to do very often but its a reasonable choice if the alternative is an at-fault slow speed colission, driving into the back of another vehicle. Even at a slow walking pace, these colisions can be extremely expensive. If a pedestrian is in the way then obviously any risk to the transmission is worth stopping instantly.
In a rational world, ABS systems would disconnect automatically below 10 kph. At that speed a skid won’t shift the rear end out more than a foot and wheel lock should bring the vehicle to a stop in a second or so on any surface.
With a manual transmission, I always depress the clutch as I roll to a stop because I have to. It makes sense that you don’t want the engine driving the car forward when you’re trying to stop. I don’t drive automatics, so I’ll leave it to someone else to comment on them.
Please email me on how to pull the fuse and disengage the ABS on a 2013 Hyundai Elantra GLS . The ABS brakes came on as I was going 5 mph in a half an inch of snow, leaving KFC. I had to pull the emergency brake lever on completely to keep from rolling with no brakes at all into traffic. I hate this car and the dangerous ABS brakes. I have no brakes at all in the snow,rain and after railroad tracks.
I’ll preface my explanation by stating that I haven’t seen the fuse layout on a 2013 Elantra and my comments are based on my 2012 Elantra Touring. The ABS fuse you need to remove is in the box under the hood. Look at the fuse map under the top cover for a fuse marked “ABS1”. It’s a square, probably 40A fuse. That’s the one you need to pull. There may also be one marked simply “ABS” (a smaller 10A fuse) and you DO NOT want to pull that one, as it has effects on other systems too, as I outlined in my January 15 post.
I found that these square fuses can be tough to pull and I had to use soft-jawed pliers to get it out. It will live in my ash tray until April when I have to get the car inspected. At that point, I’ll decide whether to leave it in for the summer or just pull it out again until the next inspection.
Thank you for the information, it is appreciated,
I will pull out that fuse in the next few days on my 2010 Kia Forte, and test drive in a parking lot covered in snow and ice.
I do not have a garage, so I only work on the car when the weather is good ( we have a lot of snow here where I live near Montreal city )
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Nice read but does the skid sign also come on when the abs light is on?
Yes, the lights for both ABS and TCS will be illuminated as long as the fuse is out. Frankly, I don’t even notice it now.
I wish it were that simple in my toyota highlander hybrid. The damn thing has 6 ABS fuses 😢
My Elantra has more than one, but only one that does what I need. You could always experiment to see what effect each fuse has.
Hello Sir, can you recommend a few foreign car brands and the most modern years in which ABS is not installed? I hate this Hyundai Elantra, intend to pay it off ASAP, sell it and never buy another car with ABS brakes again. I almost have no brakes in the snow when the dangerously useless ABS takes control of the brakes. Please help.
I don’t know what the laws are where you live, but here in the US, ABS brakes are mandatory equipment on all new cars as of 2013. My ’04 Hyundai did not have ABS, but my ’12 Hyundai does. I’m guessing that the change occurred with Hyundai sometime between 2006 and 2009, but it will likely vary between manufacturers.
Unless you live outside the US or the EU, you’re not likely to find a vehicle without ABS (It was mandated in the EU in 2004). Don’t blame the car manufacturers; this is government-created problem. If they only thing you dislike about your Hyundai is the ABS, figure out how to disable it, as that’s the only solution short of buying a really old car and trying to keep it running.
“ABS prevents the wheels from locking up, so they continue to spin freely – and there’s no braking happening.” Are you serious? That is absolute nonsense.
One can not defy the rules of physics by pulling a fuse.
What exactly do you mean, Roger? Do you understand how ABS works?
The point of this discussion is that on extremely slippery surfaces like snow and ice, ABS prevents wheel lock and your vehicle will not stop unless you happen to roll onto a surface with better traction. There are times when allowing wheels to lock can help to dig through the slick surface or allow snow to build up in front of the wheels and slow the vehicle. ABS prevents both of these potentially beneficial situations.
Yes I do undestand how it works. If someone says that when ABS works, it lets the wheels spin freely, I say that’s absolute nonsense. It does not. Wheel doesn’t have to be locked when braking.
In an extreme driving conditions, like when there is water on ice, vehicle has lousy tyres, and when all four wheels have equally low friction, ABS most likely locks all wheels. That’s because in such extreme situation the system can not compare speed data between wheels and then determines that the vehicle has stopped.
It’s true that in some rare occasion a locked wheel could allow snow to build up in front of the wheel, but a locked wheel can not steer. More helpful would be to steer the vehicle someplace where there’s more friction.
OK, point taken about “spinning freely”, but I think what the poster meant was that the ABS does not provide any discernible braking on extremely slippery surfaces, it allows the car to roll freely.
I have driven on extremely slick surfaces many times (we have real winters here in NH) and the ABS in my car doesn’t allow ANY wheel to lock, let alone all four. The car simply keeps rolling and it’s a frightening – and frustrating – experience to have zero control over braking. Being able to steer is not likely to help you if you’re rolling into the middle of an intersection with cross traffic because the computer is more concerned about not locking any wheels.
Obviously, disabling ABS in the winter or not is a personal choice and if you’re satisfied that it works well enough for you, so be it.
Well said Brian.
For anyone who has experienced a total absence of brakes with ABS on snow and ice, there is rarely a debate about the dangers of ABS.
The debate most often comes from drivers from warm weather regions who have never had the horrifying experience of coasting helplessly while ABS brakes block all braking ability.
Steering is not a substitute for braking — just like braking is not a substitute for steering. Drivers need both! The idea that it’s a great safety feature to give up all braking in return for improved steering is indefensible.
In fact, the best way to steer in extremely slipper situations is often to use brakes and steering together. Scrub off some speed in a straight line–then steer at a slower speed. And that’s assuming you even need to steer. As Brian so accurately points out, avoiding an intersection collision requires no steering, only effective braking.
Every vehicle owner’s manual warns that ABS braking distances are longer. They just don’t warn you that longer can mean indefinitely — zero deceleration — regardless of what dangers lie ahead.
I disable ABS on all of my vehicles for the winter (except for the electric car that i’m affraid to tinker with). On some of my cars, I leave the ABS disconnected year round. The only time I reconnect ABS in the winter is once every two years when vehicles require environmental testing or if I’m renewing a lease and require a safety check. On those rare occasions, I’m reminded how woefully ineffective and dangerous ABS brakes are. Same cars, same driver, same roads — just can’t stop effectively with ABS brakes enabled. I own five cars. 1 Sports car, 2 SUV’s, 1 electric car, and an economy car. I put the best snow and ice tires on all of my cars for the winter. Result are consistent across all of them. ABS brakes suck. ABS brakes disabled is awesome.
I’d like to take moment to challenge the misconception that snow debris in front of the wheel is what helps a vehicle with ABS disabled to stop faster.
In the 1990’s there were some NHTSA comparison tests done on ABS vs. non ABS equipped vehicles. None of the testing was done on snow or ice. They did do testing on gravel and noted that ABS equipped cars had significantly longer stopping distances on gravel. It was 20 or 30% if I recall correctly. The scientists were puzzled by the poor ABS brake performance and elected to attribute the difference to the effect of a damn of small rock debris building up in front of a locked wheel. This was an incorrect attribution.
When a wheel locks, it digs down to the stable surface below. Yes there is a collection of gravel in front of the wheel. But the stopping power is derived from the tire’s whole contact patch resting on the solid high traction base that sits just below the gravel.
The same is true of snow. When a tire locks on snow, the leading edge of the tire acts like a snow shovel and the trailing contact patch soon reaches the solid high traction surface that sits just below the snow. The ABS equipped tire just keeps rolling on top of the low traction snow, never attempting to stop for fear of the wheel lock that would actually provide some deceleration.
The argument that non ABS cars stop faster because of the snow debris that builds up in front of a tire is incorrect. This argument makes the difference between ABS and non-ABS braking on snow seem conceptually insignificant– because no one would expect a few ounces of snow build up to do much at all to slow down a 1500 to 3000 pound vehicle.
The real difference in braking power is the difference is as follows:
ABS Brakes:
These effectively prevent almost all brake application while rolling on top of a loose snow surface.
The effect is similar on ice but braking distances are even longer.
ABS Brakes disabled:
Within an instant of wheel lock the tire digs down to the stable surface below the loose snow resulting in rapid strong deceleration. On an Ice covered surface a locked wheel grabs the ice, patches of bare pavement and patches of sand and salt covered ice. The result is ample deceleration.
In either the case of ice or snow, the ABS disabled vehicle stops in plenty of time to stop short of an active intersection. At any point, the driver can straighten out the vehicle by momentarily releasing and reapplying the brakes. This is not pumping the brakes. Instead, in an emergency, the driver of an ABS disabled vehicle can maximize deceleration on snow and ICE with as much four wheel lock-up as possible, interrupted only intermittently with a brief brake release to straighten out the vehicle.
Not every braking situation is an emergency that requires 4 wheel lock-up. Most snow and ice braking just required competent braking. That means letting the driver decide how much brake force to apply.
The moment a sightless computer arbitrarily decides that steering is more important than braking, that’s when ABS related accidents happen.
The person who wrote this doesn’t have a clue what they’re talking about. Hopefully I never come across them on the road.
Apparently, you never drive in winter conditions or you’d understand.
Well said again Brian.
pk
60 Minutes did an expose on the perils of ABS many years ago. No doubt to the chagrin of our big automakers and the burial of that 60 Minutes segment. I do remember this from the show: ‘In a serious accident in a car with ABS you’re 60% more likely to die.’
Sorry, I am 63, never had a serious accident. I have had ABS since 1994. Best thing ever put on a car. I don’t know what brand vehicles you are driving , but on icy slippery roads ABS is the best thing since sliced bread. I have a goldwing (pre ABS) and in the face of sure death, (car pulled out from stop sign on dry roads…I over braked and lost it and slid down the highway, ABS would have kept me vertical.
No one is disputing that ABS works on dry roads or even wet roads. It doesn’t become a problem until conditions are really slippery, at which point it’s about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. If you like it and it works for you, that’s fine. I don’t because it doesn’t.
John:
If you laid your bike down on dry pavement while braking it means you were braking primarily with your rear brake. A skilled motorcycle rider would have used the front brake exclusively. Your rear tire would have been several inches off the ground until you came to a stop. It is certainly true that ABS brakes would have prevented your rear tire from skidding and sliding out. But the only ABS Advantage would have been that your incorrect emergency braking technique would not have resulted in a skid inspired collision. The greater danger to you is not knowing how to maximize the use of the front brake in an emergency.
If you learn to emergency brake correctly you will cut your braking distance by hundreds of feet and you will be able to scrub off speed in a spectacular – life-saving way. With heavy front braking, the vehicle weight shifts to your front wheel. The weight shift adds tremendous traction. The flattened contact patch and increased weight will guarantee no chance of the front wheel skidding out.
You don’t really need ABS brakes on your bike. What you really need to stay alive is to learn how to emergency brake properly with your front brake.
These are the most basic skills that should be taught to you in a beginner motorcycle training course. That’s what they taught me back in 1982. After the course, I went out on an abandoned road and practiced full-on front wheel braking from 80 kph down to zero. I did this dozens of time until it became second nature. The front tire would smoke and the rear wheel would hover 3 inches off the ground, only landing when I reached a full stop.
Three years later, this technique would save my life. A car pulled across the road 40 feet in front of me while I was traveling 50 kph and carrying a 200 lb. passenger. After regaining consciousness, someone who witnessed the accident told me that my front tire was howling (but not skidding) and my rear tire was 3 inches off the ground. He said my brake light came on instantly and the rear wheel was off the ground for the entire 40 feet before the collision.
He told me he noticed all this because he was a motorcycle instructor. He told me he observed perfectly executed emergency braking that most definitely saved the life of myself and my passenger. I only remembered reaching for the brake lever. My motorcycle did hit the car square in the passenger door but at a speed that was survivable. My passenger was unharmed. My shoulder went through the side window of the car. I suffered a hairline fractures in my sholder blade and collarbone.
I’m not writing this to diminish your prowess as a motorcyclist. I’m writing this because learning different braking skills can save your life.
Stay well.
Disclaimer: My advice to you is based on the fact that you describe yourself owning a bike without ABS brakes. I don’t have any advice for people who own ABS equipped bikes. I have never ridden one myself and have no idea how to best stop an ABS equipped bike during an emergency. My personal opinion is that rear wheel ABS on a motorcycle could do a lot of good for unskilled riders without diminishing what is possible for a highly skilled rider. However, anything that reduces front wheel brake force on a motorcycle seems like a really bad idea.
oK SERIOUSLY Gents, I have been in the auto industry for three decades. Your arguments are weak at best. I have to laugh though like what are you poor fools going to do when your next Mustang or M5 is missing the steering wheel- Ford has a prototype now, I know you have all had professional driver training and hundreds of racing hours under your belt so I feel so much safer sharing the road with you right? NO, my suggestion is your next Mustang should have a good stable overhead and quality oats.. Hell maybe with all that manure “fertilizer” you now have after you make the switch you can plant a good garden sit back have a beer and not be on the road with all us bad drivers.
Speaking of beer, it sounds like you’ve had a few too many. Perhaps you can put together a coherent sentence or two after you sober up…
Am I still banned from commenting ?
Cars without steering wheels. Who came up with that? The same people who invented Cars that have no brakes (when it’s snowy or icy)?
Uber took its self-driving cars off the road last March, after a fatal accident. I’m sure removing the steering wheel entirely will make things even better.
First, the ABS industry convinces itself that its ok to give up braking in an emergency — if it means improved steering in an emergency. So the next step is to convince themselves that dirvers don’t need to steer in an emergency either.
Thanks for the heads up.
People who cannot handle a car very well are impressed by what ABS can do.
There’s so much wrong with this article, I ain’t got time to lay it all out. That just isn’t how ABS works. You are not going to outperform the computer and the pump, no matter how awesome you think you are. File it under “On the internet you can always find a group of people to agree with you on any crackpot theory you have”. If that’s too long, file it under “WRONG”.
And you can always find a clueless clown who is absolutely certain that their limited understanding trumps the in-depth understanding and real-world experience of others.
The problems with ABS and TCS systems under WINTER conditions are well-documented, and not just in forums like this. Those of us who have to drive in such conditions KNOW these problems well FROM EXPERIENCE and several of us have nearly come to grief because of them. If you paid any attention to this discussion at all, you’d also note that most of us only disable ABS / TCS in the WINTER, when the conditions that cause the problems exist.
Nobody here is claiming that they can out-perform ABS under more common dry or wet conditions; the issue is that it doesn’t work well in ice and snow, and can create dangerous situations because the computer isn’t smart enough to deal with these conditions appropriately. Apparently, car manufacturers and the DOT think this is a reasonable trade-off, since most people rarely – if ever – have to deal with snow and ice while driving. For the average numbskull on the road who is more interested in texting than driving, that’s fine, as they have no understanding of how their vehicles work, anyway. Some of us who DO understand their vehicles have decided to take a more thoughtful approach and address the shortcomings of ABS / TCS, when necessary.
The point of this discussion is to make other drivers aware of the limitations of ABS / TCS, so they can determine if it’s a concern for them or not – based on the conditions they drive in – and make an informed decision as to whether they need to take any action for their own safety.
Do whatever you think is best FOR YOU.
I agree. The ABS system takes the control out of the driver and puts it into the computer and ABS system which makes it very scary to stop in emergencies.
If you’re driving along and your car gets damaged jamming a wheel so it doesn’t rotate such that the ABS detects a locked wheel, will the brakes work on the other 3 wheels ?
(I’ve driven a truck (no ABS) where the front wheels locked up (oil patch on the road?) but the back wheels were still braking and I stopped in time. Certainly wouldn’t have been the case with ABS !)
ABS reads and controls the wheels independently.
ABS reads and controls the wheels relative to each other as it guesses the vehicle speed from the combined 4 signals.
When ABS first came out, there were a number of pickup trucks that were equipped with Rear only ABS. So a pickup truck such as that would have continued to brake on the rear if a front wheel was locked. Under low traction conditions, front wheels would brake normally and rear wheels would behave as ABS behaves.
With 4 Wheel ABS, all four wheels experience dramatically reduced braking power and an inability to lock as soon as just one wheel starts spinning differently from the other three wheels. So while it is true to say that ABS monitors and controls each wheel independently, the outcome of that control is that the loss of braking power occurs on all four wheels simultaneously as soon as just one wheel locks or loses traction.
The only mecanical condition that I know of that would lock only one wheel on a vehicle is when a mechanic fails to tighten the two bolts that hold the brake calipers in place. If the trailing bolt falls out first, then the caliper can jam against the interior of the rim — locking the wheel into position. In this situation the vehicle is going to come to an abrupt stop regardless of ABS activity simply because one wheel is locked. If that ever happens to you you will probably need a four wheel alignment (and a new/different mechanic). You might also need to replace the tire due to tread damage and possibly also the rim, brake backing plate and misc other brake components that could be bent or damaged.
Plenty of other conditions can leave a wheel locked up. You’re trying to speculate and don’t have a good imagination or knowledge of mechanical issues. So maybe think twice before thinking you know everything.
Learn to read dude. I said it was the only condition that I knew of. I never said I knew of all conditions. Also, I never said I was speculating. The single wheel lock occured for the exact reason that I stated. The vehicle was a used Toyota Highlander Hybrid that I purchased for my daughter in 2018. Great vehicle. Bad Used Car dealership.
Also, if one wheel were completely locked, it might actually disable tha ABS completely. Disconnecting one wheel sensor usually disables the entire ABS system. I suspect a total wheel lock would have the same effect — no signal from one ABS sensor and the presumption that the sensor is malfunctioning.
I’ll disagree with this ! ‘no signal’ means disconnected sensor – a sensor that’s correctly detecting no rotation is not a fault.
Agreed.
How would the ABS computer know the difference between “no signal due to broken sensor” and “no signal due to locked wheel”. The ABS sensors only sends out pulses when the wheel rotates. The pulses are caused by magnetic induction. The faster the wheel turns, the faster the pulse frequency. No Rotation = no pulses. Disconnected sensor = no pulses. I don’t see how the ABS computer could tell the difference between the two.
Now my theory could be incorrect. However there is some practical evidence that the theory has merit. On my own cars I can disconnect one ABS sensor and start the car and pump the brakes without triggering any ABS warning lights. It is only after I put the car in motion that the ABS computer becomes aware of the missing sensor. That’s when the warning indicators light up.
The end result (on my cars) is that no signal from one wheel will disable the entire ABS system, leaving the car with well functioning conventional brakes.
pulses caused by magnetic induction – down 2 or 3 wires. No pulse = no rotation, No circuit or short circuit = defective sensor.
Hi @pmailkeey Do you have a link to literature that says there is a continuty test performed on the sensor. I looked for ODBII codes that would differentiate between disconnected sensor and malfunctioning sensor and I found none. Also, I looked at this article
https://www.2carpros.com/articles/abs-wheel-speed-sensor-test
It shows that the way to test for a defective sensor is to put a volt meter on the sensor and spin the wheel. There is no suggestion of a continuity test for the sensor. They do suggest testing the continuity of each wire (if the sensor is producing voltage but the system is not working). I interpret that to mean that a broken wire or disconneced sensor woudl also result in zero voltage. I also interpret this to mean that the ODBII codes can’t differentiate between broken circuit and no voltage. That’s my best interpretation of an article that was written on a relevant topic.
In any case, if you extrapolate from the diagnostic article, a defective sensor would generate no voltage and no pulses. A locked non-rotating wheel would generate no voltage/no pulses. A disconnected sensor would also generate no voltage/no pulses.
The initial question was not actually whether or not an ABS computer could tell the difference between a disconnected sensor and a malfunctioning sensor. The question was, “if one wheel is mechanically locked into a prolonged skid, how woud the ABS braking system respond.” I suggested it was possible that the ABS computer would interpret the lack of data from the sensor as a sensor fault and that the ABS might disable itself. I don’t know for sure that this would be the actual outcome but it still seems like the most likley outcome. Also the safest outcome.
Imagine if you are driving along and one sensor stops working during your drive. Now you hit the brakes. Do you want your ABS brakes to eliminate your brakes on the affected wheel. That could cause a serious accident. That’s why ABS systems disable themselves when the sensor data is missing, intermittent or inconsistent with normal operation.
To answer your question about what happens when you have a switch to disconnect one sensor, this is what happens on my cars. If I’m driving along and I hit the disconnect switch, nothing happens at all until I hit the brakes. The moment I hit the brakes, the ABS instantly disables itself leaving me with normal brakes.
I suspect mechanically locked wheel would produce the same results. It would not matter much for the locked wheel because it is locked and reducing the brake pressure on that wheel won’t make a difference. But I would hope that the ABS system would disable itself so that the other three brakes are not responding with reduced brake pressure.
It’s no good making assumptions – you have to simulate more accurately than that. Wire a switch into one sensor wire so the switch will effectively break one of the wires and have the switch in the car. Driving at 30, brake gently, operate the switch – do you lose all brakes ?
Driving at 30, operate switch THEN brake – any good then ?
It takes a long time for the ABS system to flag a sensor as defective. So don’t count on that happening DURING a locked wheel failure.
Now every ABS system is not identical and they do change over time. But in my experience with my vehicles, disconnecting a sensor instantly disables the entire ABS system. This ha been true with my various years of Subaru, Lexus and Toyota vehicles. By adding a switch to interupt just one wheel sensor, I can immediately disable the entire ABS system on the fly. Flipping the switch while the vehicle is in motion instantly converts the entire vehicle into a conventionally braking vehicle. On my vehicles, they need to be turned off and restarted with the sensor circuit intact in order to re-enable the ABS.
The ABS wheel sensors generate electrical pulses as the wheel turns. The moment some wheels are generating pulses and one wheel is generating none, the ABS computers on my vehicles have instantly disabled themself. So while I know what happens on my vehicle when I interupt a sensor circuit, I speculate that it is likely that a completely locked wheel would have a similar effect — no signal from one sensor.
Disconnecting and locked wheel are different issues.
Well the issues are different but I suspect the ABS computer would not be able to tell the difference between the two issues. In either case there will be zero signal from one wheel sensor. ABS sensors don’t send out a signal to indicate that the wheel is stationary. They only send out pulses to indicate the speed that the wheel is spinning. Faster pulses = faster speed. How do you think the ABS computer could differentiate between zero pulses from a locked wheel and zero pulses from a disconnected sensor?
ABS computer will know circuit is open (no conductivity) shorted or normal resistance. Only if the latter will the system work.
A connected sensor gives static feedback by making the circuit complete. Breaking the circuit is a different scenario to one with pulsing resistance.
I responded to the first of your three posts on this topic. See Above
Paul, 2-3 days ago, I was watching a car crash video where the cammer’s car glanced off the side of another causing seemingly minimal damage despite tyres rubbing against each other. The cammer reported ‘Lost brakes’. I was about to respond with some silly comment about not losing brakes then thought of ABS and went to bed.
General Google research reveals reports by others of ‘losing brakes’ in slippery conditions and I came to the conclusion that there is a possibility that ABS could stop you from braking.I suspect neither of us are experts on the matter and different systems on different vehicles may behave differently – so limited experience isn’t going to provide a complete appreciation of the issue. It’s certainly one worth looking very deeply at.
Back in the early 80s, Fords’ brake pad wear sensing system knew the difference between an unplugged sensor and any other condition – so the concept is not new. It’s quite reasonable to on brake light switch being operated, to check wheel speed sensors for correct readings and quickly determine if one is not working properly. The other weird situation is brake testing for MOT where only one wheel may be rotating during the test and a max of 2 wheels. I daresay the ABS programming will need to deal with that situation by specifically looking for all rotating to one rotating too slowly or not at all.
ABS will absolutely prevent you from braking in extremely slippery conditions like ice, snow, slush and slimy mud. That’s what started this thread. The bizarre thing about it is that when it prevents you from braking, it’s actually operating as designed, which is a huge safety flaw. That’s why many of use here disable ABS, at least in the winter. I put the ABS fuse back in during the summer, mainly to turn off the light, but also because it can’t do any real harm.
The most frightening ABS of all of my vehicles is the 2015 Nissan leaf. If I hit a bump while braking, I loose 100% of brakes on all wheels and the vehicle starts accelerating. That lasts about 2 – 3 seconds. Truely terrifying. But I’m afraid to tinker with anything because the vehicle is over computerized.
I’ll preface this by stating that I don’t know anything about the specifics of the Leaf, but many cars have a separate fuse for the ABS system (mine does). Pulling that fuse disables ABS in my car, but it illuminates the ABS light on the dashboard (which indicates the system isn’t working). It’s possible that the Leaf is similar, but if it has regenerative braking (I’m pretty sure it does), it’s likely not possible to disable the ABS without disabling other functions. You would need to do some research on this and possibly some testing in an empty parking lot somewhere.
I suspect the Leaf would not travel more than 5 kph if I did any type of change. Also, Nissan dealarships charge $149 to clear any kind of error code. Amazing car. Horible ABS. Pathetic service and warranty practices. If it were not for those things I would be hooking up a disconnect switch to one of the ABS sensors.
You should be able to clear error codes yourself with an inexpensive OBDII scanner. It’s also a good way to check error codes so you know what is wrong before you attempt a repair or bring it to a dealer.
On a normal car yes. On a Leaf, I’m not sure that I could clear limp mode.
The Nissan Service department also insisted that I would void my warantee if I connected a generic ODBII reader to my car. Its probably BS but its a great way to discourage people from trying to solve thier own problems vs paying an outrageous $150 diagnostic fee.
Contact Nissan and ask them. If you find out that your dealer is lying to you, you’ll know what kind of people you’re dealing with and that you cannot trust them. You can then take as much of your business as possible to honest people. I would also think that Nissan would want to know about abusive, dishonest dealers, as they damage the company’s reputation.
Nissan Central is worse. Nissan sells scam warranties. you pay $5000 for a warranty that esssentially pays for nothing. You call nissan to ask if something is covered under warranty. They refuse to tell you and refer you to go to your dealership. The Dealership charges you $150 diagnstic fee to determine if it is covered under warrantee and the answere is always “no”. The fine print on the warranty says that nothing is covered unless a part needs to be replaced. Then they try to fix everything without replacing a part. I’ve read horror stories on the internet from people with serious transmission problems on new cars that are covered under warranty. They drop thier car off expecting a new transmission. They are told the problem can be fixed without any new parts and they pay thousands of dollars for repair hours that don’t do anything to fix the problem. Then they bring the car back again and the same thing happens. Some people have spen $7000 on useless repairs and their under warranty cars are still undrivable. I love the Leaf. Its a great car. But Nissan is a horrible unethical organizaton when it comed to service and maintenance. They abuse thier customers. The lucky customers never need any service and never have any serious problems. The customers who encounter problems get fleaced and underserviced. Understanding this, I won’t even try to ask them for help with the flaky ABS brakes. I know what would happen.
In sharp contrast, I have never been disappinted by Toyota or Lexus Warranty coverage.
Wow. I’ve only owned one Nissan, but it was 30 years ago. It was a great car and I don’t recall any issues with the dealer. It sounds like the company has gone downhill; I’ll keep that in mind the next time in the market for a car.
Corruption at the top leads to corruption throughout.
Not that surprising the CEO stole / embezzled millions and fled Japan.
I have never seen such a line of horse chit then this article or the comments left with it. ABS system ( aka traction control ) is exactly what it says , traction control. ABS will make no difference in how braking is done weather you are on dry or wet roads. It allows people to maintain control to avoid the problem ahead. None of you take in account that you have to maintain a normal speed, safe distance and for god sake pay attention, PUT THE DAMN PHONE DOWN. Every governing body in the world has put blame on 90% of accidents on drivers abilty to stay focused on there driving not a device that controls there brakes. Before any one opens there mouth do some real research on the subject.
I am a test driver for some very big top end sport car builders and can tell you ABS/traction control works if you are most focused on you driving not the other BS around you,
Every vehicle owners manual warn drivers to increase following distances because ABS brakes take longer to stop especially on wet or frozen roads. Perhaps you should read the owners manual for the cars that you test.
Exactly how much testing of these sports cars do you do on snow, slush, ice and mud? If you actually read this thread, you’d know that it’s only in these very low traction situations that ABS fails. By all means, feel free to present actual data on the testing you’ve done under these conditions.
It would also be interesting to know how the ABS/TC systems in those cars compare to systems more typical vehicles. When you get right down to it, most ABS systems are pretty “dumb” and are basically a blunt instrument.
BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with your admonitions against excessive speed and distracted driving. However, their not particularly relevant to my situation, as the issues I had with ABS/TCS occur at low speeds when traction is low and I am hyper-focused on driving and and feeling the road conditions (which is another thing that ABS/TCS inhibits).
The systems in my car are currently enabled, as there aren’t any issues with it in spring/summer/fall driving conditions. Next month, when I install my snow tires, I’ll disable the ABS/TCS for the winter.
Every NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) study performed on ABS found significantly longer stoping distances for ABS brakes, expecially on wet roads and Gravel. They neglected to test snow and ice.
ABS is not “aka traction control” ABS is Antilock Brakes. TC is Traction Control, VDC is Vehicle Dynamic Control. ABS and TC both make use of the ABS sensors and they likely run on the same computers but the functions are almost opposite. ABS releases brake pressure to prevent a brake lock. TC reduces engine power and engages brakes to prevent wheel spin due to acceleration. VDC differentially engages each brake to make the vehicle travel straight if inertial sensors and other sensors detect a skid, drift or fishtail.
Each of these systems can be problematic depending on the surface and the immediate need.
Let’s start with TC. I recall volunteering to help a fellow get his vehicle unstuck from a residential street that was bogged down with snow after a snowstorm. I towed him out of the snow plow furrow with my highlander. Then I watched him get himself stuck again. Three times, I towed him free and three times he got himself stuck. Assuming he was incompetent, I offered to drive his vehicle off the street for him. Initially I was baffled as to why I was almost completely unable to move the vehicle in the eight inches of wet snow. I got out and let air out of all of his tires to produce a larger contact patch. I continued and it took me 10 minutes to travel only one block. Smelling the brake pads burning, I suddenly realized traction control was on. I turned it off and drove the vehicle with ease onto to closest plowed street. Sure the wheels spun but that’s what needed to happen for the vehicle to move and mauve on the unplowed street.
So as you can see, preventing wheel-spin to “Increase Traction” can result in a virtually un-drivable vehicle. ABS is a lot like that. While it may do something useful for certain road conditions, it is different on snow, ice and gravel. On those surfaces, ABS it can make a vehicle completely unstoppable until you hit something (or pull the emergency brake).
Just to finish off the TC analogy, even on dry pavement, a vehicle with traction control engaged will not be able to accelerate nearly as fast as the same vehicle with traction control disabled. So Traction control does not really give you more traction, it just gives you less acceleration. ABS is very much the same. It does not help you to brake in shorter distances, it reduces the available brake force to prevent wheel lock. It gives you LESS BRAKING to prevent wheel lock. It increases braking distances based on the assumption that better steering is more important than shorter stopping distance.
On ice and snow, the increase in stopping distance can be so extraordinary that no reasonable person would be happy with the tradeoff. Many contributors to this forum have experienced the total loss of ABS brakes on (snow and ice) in situations where stopping is urgently important and steering is not important at all. For example, better steering is of no consequence if the road is straight and the active intersection ahead is rapidly getting closer because ABS is releasing the brake fluid pressure at all four wheels to prevent one wheel from locking.
Every government test of ABS brakes has found ABS braking distances to be longer than conventional brakes. Most of the same research found that Accident rates on ABS equipped vehicles were higher. Some found the accident rates were equal but they were only able to arrive at that conclusion by excluding the three models of ABS equipped vehicles that had the highest accident rates. It was an outrageously unscientific cherry picking of the data that was undertaken to avoid the scientific conclusion that ABS accident rates are higher.
Lastly, let’s talk about VDC. VDC always assumes that going straight is a good thing if the rear end of your vehicle begins to drift. That assumption is never true if you are traveling on a curved section of road. The curve may be an ice covered off-ramp, or you may be turning right at an intersection. In either case, when VDC differentially engages the brakes to make a turning vehicle travel straight, it’s a very bad thing. In these situations, VDC can take you into a guard rail, into a ditch, into a roll-over, into a telephone pole, into a pedestrian, or into an oncoming vehicle.
Most vehicles that have TC and VDC have a switch to disable them. For drives who travel in districts with heavy snow and ice, it is important to know when to use those switches.
Unfortunately, no vehicle comes standard equipped with an ABS disconnect switch. This Forum is a nexus of sensible drivers who have recognized that certain road and weather conditions are much safer with ABS disconnected.
(Every owners manual that I have looked in for cars built in Canada)
Greetings Auston: And to all your intelligent knowledgeable readers and posters. I say Hello:
Please note: This is after years after the Honda Auto Manufacture’s Investigation and our Attorney’s opinion which all went no were! They were focused the Passenger Safety Restraint System.
Our concern was with the ABS brakes and cruise control System which never got addressed.
Not looking for any Legal Help, THATS All OVER !! Just curious? Maybe you or your readers can shed some light on the mystery. Would still like to know what truly happened? Short story, Wife & I crashed a 2009 Honda Accord @ 70 mph into a tree. We lived, and that’s a whole other story. Here’s what we remember and the conditions. Dry warm summer day, equipment all running fine. While on cruise control 70 mph, wife sleeping, me driving, Something unexplainable happened, A flash of bright light then my forward and drivers side view was blocked I couldn’t see forward or to the left side. (We suspect drivers side curtain air bag deployed) I drove off the interstate to the right in to the grass median, wife at this time wakes up, I do a PANIC STOP STANDING on the break pedal—one hard solid fast push both feet standing on the break pedal.. were not stopping – wife sees me standing on the break pedal and ASK WHY ARE WE NOT STOPING???!!!
NOTE: — BREAK PEADEL WAS ROCK SOLID HARD to the push, still in the full up position. This went on for abought 1/8 of a mile at full speed till we hit the tree. I suspect the cruise control or other system over rode the breaks keeping us at speed not allowing us to stop. I believe! If only I pumped the break pedal a few times, the cruise control or other system would of shut off, allowing me to stop the car.
Hopefully: You, or someone knowledgeable who reads this has the answer?
Thank You!
Hope to here from you soon.
MIKE G.
At this point, it’s all conjecture, but here are some things to think about.
The cruise control should have disengaged as soon as you pressed the brake pedal.
I remember tests from back in the days of the infamous Audi “sudden acceleration” suits that showed that the engine cannot overpower the brakes. If you stand on both the brake and the accelerator pedals, the vehicle will still stop, though it will take longer to do so.
What was the surface of the median like? If it was grass, gravel or mud, it’s likely that the ABS would have lengthened your stopping distance, but it shouldn’t have been as much as you describe.
With the Audi suits, it was eventually determined that the problem was that the car was NOT accelerating on its own, it was that the pedal positions were shifted to the left somewhat in that design and drivers were inadvertently stomping on the ACCELERATOR instead of the brakes. There was an issue with the high idle causing the car to lurch a bit, which contributed to driver confusion. I’ve seen plenty of news stories recently about drivers doing the same thing in a variety of vehicles, slamming into their garages, or driving into storefronts or houses.
It seems to me that this is largely a by-product of the dominance of automatic transmissions and the lack of interest in learning real driving skills here in the US. Add to that system like ABS, TCS, backup cameras, collision avoidance, etc. and people are pretty much divorced from the driving experience and simply don’t pay attention to the basics, figuring that the car will do everything for them other than turn the steering wheel.
I’ve always driven manual transmission vehicles and I reflexively press the clutch and the brake whenever I stop. Since I’m always using both feet, even if I screwed up I would end up pressing the gas and the brake. Worst case, I would still stop.
I’ll leave it to you to determine if any of this could be applicable to your situation. However, I do wonder that if a side curtain airbag deployed, could it have pushed your body far enough to the right that you stomped on the wrong pedal without realizing it?
BTW, I’m glad that you survived so you could write us here!
I forgot to mention that if your car had ABS, you should have felt the pulsing through the brake pedal and probably would have heard it, too. If you don’t recall that, it could be evidence for “pedal misapplication”.
70 MPH on Grass is exactly the type of conditions where ABS can give you near zero braking. It depends on the vehicle and model year. Some are worse than others. The essence of the problem is that ABS prevents wheel lock and wheel lock is essential to stop on low traction surfaces. Wheel lock forces the wheels to dig below the low friction top layer (snow, ice, loose gravel, blades of grass, blades of grass covered with dew). Without wheel lock, the wheels never reach a higher traction surface and the car never decelerated until impact.
ABS in general is designed to prevent skids regardless of how long it takes to stop. If any one of the four wheels spins at a slower rate than the others then ABS releases brake pressure on all four wheels. This means that the wheel with the least traction can cause ABS to give up on braking entirely on four corners of the vehicle. Added to that, pulsing brakes are doing roughly half the work of brakes that are not pulsing. On dry, flat pavement, ABS tends not to expose much of its potential weakness because traction is high and the vehicle is constantly moving on to fresh high traction surface. It’s the long stretches of low friction surfaces that can trigger ABS systems to yield a total loss of brakes until impact. Pot holes that send a wheel into a brief airborne state can also eliminate brakes on all four wheels. I experience this several times a year on my Nissan Leaf (but not my other vehicles). If the Leaf hits a pot hole as it approaches an intersection stop, I lose 100% of brakes and the electric motor accelerates the car towards the intersection for about a second or two.
Back to your attempt to stop on grass….
What you could have done was to slam on the emergency brake. This would have forced a wheel lock on to the rear end of the vehicle. And if you had AWD, some of that wheel locks may have also been inferred into the front wheels via the transmission. With the rear wheels locked, they would have dug inches into the dirt below the grass and your rear wheels would have behaved like heavy anchors.
The emergency brake maneuver should be the first resort for anyone who finds them standing on the brake pedal with no result.
Although your legal case is over, the best course of action might have been to recreate the grass field braking conditions with ABS enabled/disabled – and compare braking distances.
Good Day Brian and Paul. Thank You both for considering my situation. I agree with all of what you both say. Brian, I am very experienced driver, very well aware – brake switch cancels cruise. If that would of happened we would not be having this conversation, Very well aware of what Brake pedal pulse feels like and it’s effects on control, experienced it 100’s of times, shifting the car into neutral, pull up hand break all obvious things to do—EXCEPT. @ 70 mph- I had a air bag explode out of no were in my face and. I was a little shocked, did not expect that, it was a first for us. Next time it happens, I’ll be better prepared.
Just like the Mac 737 aircraft. After 3 crashes they now know, after take off– turn off the switch that forces the plains nose down to ground. That’s my understanding. A switch cost less than redesigning the air craft. The switch is there cause engines have to much power for the aircrafts current designs center of gravity. So, during take off, the plain’s nose fly’s straight up and stalls the aircraft with out it. Anyway: Honda agrees there were 2 events recorded with the air bag system, but would not admit to any wrong. Remember: just like the election. Who’s reading the results of the data? reading the code and relaying it to my experts and attorney was all in Hondas hands. Our attorney’s bailed on us saying it was a business decision not to pursue due to additional cost involved.
Paul: Sir I totally agree with your theory on ABS and slippery grass at high speed.
Again: For my own sake. I’m trying to put some closure to this. I greatly enjoyed reading expert responses, hearing all good ideas and mostly, Thank You for sharing your time and knowledge! Thank You all!!!
DRIVE SAFLEY ! I KNOW ALL TO WELL !! Anything can happen.
Thanks Mike G.
Mike, I didn’t mean to imply anything about your driving ability and my long-winded response was only because I also didn’t know if you were familiar with what I explained. As you stated, having an airbag going off unexpectedly was new experience, to say the least, and I would imagine, quite disorienting.
I don’t know about the Honda ABS system, but many – if not most – do not disable braking on all four wheels if one is slipping. Rather, they modulate braking on each wheel independently. If the vehicle also has a dynamic stability control system, it must have independent control over the brakes at each wheel.
Regardless, this conversation has been educational. I pulled the fuse on my ABS/TCS system for the winter a couple of days ago. I find it somewhat ironic that have the two “idiot light” illuminated on the dashboard is rather comforting.
FYI.
In am attempt to stop us, my wife was reaching over to shut off the engine…
HAD SHE BEEN SUSCESSFUL in turning off the ignition—- it accrued to me.
The remaining 3 air bags and 2 seat belt retractors would not of deployed.
Unfortunately in an attempt to do so, she was out of her seat and in a strange position when we hit. Her injuries way more than mine. also, little fact. I cant see – My eyes are ok – I can see my wife and out her side of the vehicle just fine If that had happened.
Pretty sure I wouldn’t be hear typing now. Thank YAA JESUS !!!!
Take Care! Time to watch some Football GO STEELERS 8 – 0
No game to day. Dam covid-19 L. Jackson Exposed.
SEE YA !
Brian Nystrom:
You wrote:
“I don’t know about the Honda ABS system, but many – if not most – do not disable braking on all four wheels if one is slipping. Rather, they modulate braking on each wheel independently. If the vehicle also has a dynamic stability control system, it must have independent control over the brakes at each wheel.”
So I have much respect for everything you have contributed to this thread. Let’s you and I explore your above statement — put our two heads together.
I agree that the ABS industry would positively describe their systems in a way that is consistent with your three sentences. You and I have both experienced total loss of brakes on slippery surfaces due to ABS. You and I both disable our ABS seasonally — to suit our local weather conditions.
Now consider this. If one wheel loses traction, the only way to keep a braking car traveling straight is to make sure that the other four wheels do not have any greater braking force than the one that has lost traction. If you actually allowed the other three wheels to take full advantage of their potential braking force then you would have twice as much braking force on one side of the vehicle. That could lead to a skid.
So it is obviously true that ABS monitors each wheel independently. And it is also certainly true that ABS controls the pressure to each brake independently. However, if the objective of the independent control is equal brake force at all wheels (to prevent skids) — then the outcome of that independent control is that all four wheels are equally handicapped. So when one wheel loses traction…the only way to keep the brake force equal on all four corners is to reduce the brake force at the three high traction wheels down to the level of the low traction wheel. Do you concur? Or can you otherwise imagine how a vehicle travels straight under braking when one wheel has far less traction than the other three.
Now with my argument in mind, think back to your own close shaves with ABS brakes. Did you lose brake force on just some wheels? Or did you lose brake force at all four corners.
I’ve mentioned a few times in this thread how my Nissan Leaf loses all brakes (and accelerates) any time one wheel hits a pot hole approaching a stop sign. It’s an interesting example of the thoughtlessness of ABS brakes. I’m on a high traction paved surface where braking with only three wheels would most certainly not initiate a skid — especially not at the speed that I’m traveling when I am ten or twenty feet from a stop sign. One wheel hits a pot and hole goes minutely airborne. The result is total loss of brakes on all four wheels and an electric motor that starts accelerating the vehicle. This behavior mirrors exactly what you would expect from a system that tries to reduce all of the wheels to the effective braking power of the wheel that is least tethered to the pavement.
Among my four ABS equipped vehicles, the Nissan Leaf is the only one that behaves this way when it hits a pot hole. I’m not sure if this is related to the extremely light weight alone or if there are additional programming flaws. My suspicion is that the weight distribution is the key differentiating factor. The Nissan Leaf has a very light weight electric drive system positioned between the front wheels. My other vehicles have much heavier six cylinder gas engines. The Nissan Leaf carries a concentration of weight under the floor boards where the battery is located. I suspect the Nissan Leaf behaves a bit like a teeter totter when it hits significant pot hole. Perhaps the heavy battery acts like the fulcrum of a teeter totter. It’s the best explanation that I have for why the Nissan Leaf ABS brakes behave so strangely in an industry where the ABS components are so standardized.
In winter/ice conditions the three gas powered vehicles demonstrate similar ABS characteristics that are to each other. When one wheel loses traction, ABS reduces my brake force at all four wheels. I know this to be true thanks to the emergency brake. I’ll explain the emergency brake observation in a moment.
Truth be told, the ABS brakes on the Toyota’s/Lexus are not that frightening 98% of the time. That’s in sharp contrast to the 1995 – 2008 Subaru’s from my past. Those Subaru ABS brakes were terrifying 100% of the time during below zero temperatures.
I typically don’t bother to disconnect the ABS brakes on My RX 350 or Highlander unless we get hit by an ice storm. Those vehicles are heavy enough that the ABS is seldom triggered and the emergency brake is always there as a backup system.
The forceful change in momentum when you engage the emergency brakes is a pretty clear illustration of how little of the potential braking force is being utilized when the ABS braking system is pushing up on the brake pedal. ABS may be independently modulating each brake — that’s nothing to be proud of when it is “INDEPENDENTLY TERRIBLE AT EACH WHEEL”. I mean “independently terrible” at utilizing the available traction. Hitting the emergency brake proves that.
I do routinely disable the Lexus IS 300 ABS brakes for the entire season. Something about the IS300 makes it more prone to ABS taking all my brakes away. The IS 300 ABS brakes are 1000 times safer than my old Subaru’s. But the IS 300 ABS brakes are still quite problematic at intersections with ice or unplowed deep snow.
So there it is. Different vehicles seem to perform very differently when ABS kicks in. But I stand by my observation that losing traction on one wheel can result in a loss of brake force on all wheels when the ABS computer intervenes. No traction for one wheel can give you no brakes on all wheels.
Austin, you raise some interesting points. Thinking about it, I don’t know if I’ve ever been in a low-traction braking situation where all four wheels weren’t on essentially the same surface (snow, slush, ice, or mud. Consequently, I can’t really say with any certainty whether the ABS system in my car reduces braking to all four wheels when one slips or not. We’re in the middle of a snowstorm today, so perhaps I’ll have an opportunity to do some testing, though it would mean having to re-enable the ABS in the car. 😉
I do think that you’re making on erroneous assumption and that is that ABS is supposed to deliver the SAME braking force to all four wheels. My understanding is that it’s supposed to modulate the braking at each wheel to the available traction, independently. At the front, there would be limits to this, as it could cause the steering wheel to pull in the direction of the wheel with traction. But I don’t see any issue with the rear wheels; if you have more traction there than at the front, the car will still brake in a straight line. Remember also that the will not be any skidding, because the ABS system will react to any loss of traction at any of the wheels. So it seems to me that the bottom line is that it’s certainly possible for an ABS system to modulate each brake independently – with limitations at the front – and take advantage of available traction. Whether they actually work that way is an open question and apparently varies from one brand/model to the next.
All this said, I know from experience that ABS is atrocious and dangerous in low-traction conditions (as we’ve all discussed ad nauseam), and I will continue to disable it each winter.
Hi Brian, I’m not Austin. I’m Paul — just another thread participant.
So it looks like we can agree on ABS being terrible in certain conditions but we won’t at this time agree on why. That’s fine.
You think my assumptions are incorrect and I think yours are incorrect. Also fine.
You have stated…
“My understanding is that ~ABS is~ supposed to modulate the braking at each wheel to the available traction, independently.”
ABS does not actually have sensors that detect traction. You know that. I’m not pretending that I know something that you don’t.
ABS has wheel speed sensors. Under braking, ABS trys to keep all four wheels spining the same speed. So when one wheel in particular can’t decelerate without locking the unlocked speed of that wheel becomes the minimum speed for the other three wheels. So if one wheel can’t decellerate effectvely due to low traction….ABS will ensure that the other three wheels continue to match the speed of low traction wheel.
On dry pavement, you can still stop pretty effectively because traction is pretty high on all four corners. On ice or patchy ice or unlplowed snow, its a different story. In those situation, the wheel with the least traction may have absoloutley zero traction.
I know that alot of people think that preventing a wheel from locking prevents a vehicle from spinning out of control. That’s not actually true. Differential brake force at each corner has a very powerful directional effect on a vehicle. Think about VDC.
VDC uses differential braking to make a turning/skidding car travel straight. That’s great if you want to travel straignt — but not good at all if you are trying to navigate a turn. Regardless of whether VDC is a good idea or not…my point is that applying different brake force at each wheel does have a powerful steering effect. The term “Brake Steer” is sometimes usesd to describe this phenomenon.
In 1997 the Mclaren F1 team were winning every race by many laps. They had secretly installed a second brake pedal that only activated the front brake on one side of the vehicle.
https://www.mclaren.com/racing/inside-the-mtc/mclaren-extra-pedal-3153421/
The driver used the inside brake traveling around tight corners and he left everyone else miles behind. He was using differential brakes to steer more effectively than could be done with the steering wheel. Once the device was exposed, the mechanism was banned for use in F1 Racing.
Anyway, if you hit the brakes and just one wheel has little or no tracton, then the brakes at the other three wheels will try to twist the vehicle into a new direction or potentially into a spin-out. ABS tries to prevent this by modulating the brakes to keep all four wheels spinning the same speed. The brakes on the three high traction wheels are modulated to a lower force to match the speed of the low traction wheel.
It is also true that three wheels with very low traction and one wheel with high traction will also have a powerful Brake Steer effect. ABS prevents this type of Brake Steer from causing a skid or spinout. It does so by releasing the brake pressure on all four wheels. When the three low traction wheels start locking, the locks are detected by the ABS sensor which triggers the pulsating and releasing of brake pressure at those three wheels. But ABS also intervenes to keep the high traction wheel spinning at the same rate as the other three wheels. That’s essential to preventing brake steer. The consequence is that you can give up alot of braking power from the only wheel that has good traction.
All of this is pretty easy to demonstrate on a slick ice surface. You get zero brakes thanks to ABS but you travel perfectly straight. Engage the emergency brake and you decelerate rapidly but the vehicle starts to go a little sideways. A vehicle with wheels braking at different RPM’s does not stay perfectly straight on the road — but it slows down a lot faster compared to ABS.
Sorry for the name mixup, Paul.
The only way that I’ll be able to resolve this is to do some testing on mixed surfaces. Specifically, I want to see what happens when the wheels on one side are on ice and the other side wheels are on pavement. When I see an opportunity to test this, I’ll re-enable the ABS and see what happens. Once I do, I’ll report back.
Sounds good.
OP sounds like a 15 y/o ancap
No, he’s a concerned driver who’s pointing out a potentially dangerous flaw in modern cars. There’s nothing “ancap” about it.